Car Question: Would this be worth it?

[Hi Ho]

I know all you here at PCmech have heard a bit about my vehicles but I'm looking for some opinions here. I really like my car. It's a 1990 Honda Civic DX Sedan. I grew up with it. My parents bought it new in and it has been the best car they ever owned as far as reliability goes. I have been driving it for a little over a year now. I don't know of any modern non-hybrid cars that get 42 MPG. It's hard to let go of a car that has been so good to you. We have put less than $1000 into repairs on this car over 14 years and 328,849 miles. The most expensive and only major repair that has ever been made was the alternator which was replaced a couple years ago. The clutch is original and shows no signs of wear what-so-ever. It has seen plenty of city driving, mountain roads, 2ft snow, high water, you name it this car has been there. The interior is immaculate with very little/no wear on anything. The engine burns no oil and starts every time. It's basically like new except for a few things.

I want to know whether you think it would be worth it to fix it up a bit. The paint on the roof and hood is bad and it's starting to fade on the doors. I'm thinking about painting the entire car. I would, however, want a good quality paint job and that would be quite costly. The headlights also need to be replaced as they used to leak and have rusted inside. If I did paint it and replaced the lenses/headlights the car would literally look like I just drove it off the lot. The dilema is that I don't know how much longer this car will be trouble free. I know it's not possible to predict that but do you think it would be worth fixing this car up? I may use it through college so I want it to look decent.

Here are some pictures:
Odometer
Front
Back
Inside 1
Inside 2
Engine

[i8uiky]

you like it does it start quickly (how many seconds does it crank before starting) sounds like it runs good no leeks I think you should paint and keep it for a long time and put the new car money in an invetsment that will make you rich.

[Panama Red]

Drive it as is. Save your money. Once you paint it and make it look good you'll feel obligated to spend money on mechanical repairs that will inevitably happen. Function is more important than looks. You don't have to impress anyone with a 14 year old card with over 300k miles. Just drive it!

[Hi Ho]

It starts on the second revolution every time. It always has. Always makes the same exact sound.

[TwoRails]

I've done a lot of "car rebuilds" for people, so yes, I think it's worth it. It's a car you "love," and has treated you well. Pumping some money into it should be far less than buying something else that you have to start all over with: like building confidence in it, putting it in shape, and so on.

[Hi Ho]

Woah a couple replies while I was typing. Anyway, I don't want to impress anyone I just like my cars to look nice. I'm sort of a neat freak when it comes to my car. I clean it all the time. Even if it is 14 years old it would look brand new if I did what I proposed above.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Hi Ho Woah a couple replies while I was typing. Anyway, I don't want to impress anyone I just like my cars to look nice. I'm sort of a neat freak when it comes to my car. I clean it all the time. Even if it is 14 years old it would look brand new if I did what I proposed above.

hell yeah it would look brand new. that things in EXCELLENT shape. for everything that cars been through and that many miiles....its in great shape. one thing though...im with PR on this one. drive that puppy till shes broke. im sure you want a better car than that down the line. that Honda has proven its worth...and from the shape its in, it should last a while longer.

[glc]

I'd run it till the wheels fall off, then put the wheels back on and run it some more. You have a rare car there that has held up this long with no major repairs.

However, I would not throw a big chunk of change into appearance items, because it is very possible that something major *will* break, thereby flushing your big bucks paint job down the toilet. If I were in your position and had your concern about appearance, I would certainly replace the headlight buckets - that's a safety item - and go get a cheap Maaco paint job. How is that for a compromise? The Maaco job will actually be halfway decent if you do as much of your own prep as you can. It won't be clearcoat, but so what? It will all be the same color and it will be shiny - and will last a few years with reasonable care.

[HAL9000]

I say it comes down to how much are you willing to invest in this car. For example... lets say that suddenly you need the clutch job.. on the way to the garage, the head gasket blows... now you're talking some serious mechanical repairs that need to be done. Are you willing to spend that money? If not, the heck with the paint job... if you like the car enough to go thru with the repairs, then go for the paint as well.

[glc]

Good point on the head gasket - and here's something to consider there. With that many miles on it, you wouldn't want to just replace the head gasket, you would be looking at a rebuilt or good used engine. The head will likely come off warped, the rings are worn..........see where we are going?

[rjfvillarosa]

GLC and HAL are right in what they say, a clutch on that car is gearbox out and suspension drop on one side, put that with the cost of the parts and you are looking at $200 plus, OK head gasket, this car is fitted with an aluminium cylinder head so when it comes off it must be machined before it can go back on, OK head set on a Honda $80 + machine shop cost's $100 (no point machining the head nice and flat if all the valve seats are leaking) stretch bolts and a few hydraulic cam followers $100.
Do your self a favour, the car has done you well, keep cleaning it and looking after it as well as you have done up to now, get your self a pair of cheap headlamps from a breaker and keep your money in the bank, paint is not going to make this car run any better and unfortunately a major repair with that many miles on the clock is only over the horizon.
The car has obviously been well looked after just keep it up.

[TwoRails]

And, looking at it from the other end of the financial aspect: the same car, but a 2000 model, goes for... what? $10,000 - $11,000? And then you still have the same worries, like is the clutch going to go out? Is the head gasket going to blow? And, of course, you still have to buy tires and brakes and the like.

Fixing up a vehicle, specially one that was keep in good condition in the first place, is often much less then buying a newer rig and is often more rewarding in the non-tangibles. However, one has to determine the point of diminishing returns and make sure you stay under that.

So, using the '00 model as an example, how much are you willing to put into an old family favorite before you wish you'd gone with a newer vehicle? $2K, $5K, ... $6K ?? It can be a tough decision, especially when it’s not just a fixer-upper, but a family car.

[fcoral]

hey hi-ho keep the honda,keep it in good clean shape for as long as possible and when the major work comes up decide if you want to do it and if you do it then after you can consider the paint so that way you know you have a very sound car in looks and works that will possible go another 300k plus

[Hi Ho]

a clutch on that car is gearbox out and suspension drop on one side, put that with the cost of the parts and you are looking at $200 plus, OK head gasket, this car is fitted with an aluminium cylinder head so when it comes off it must be machined before it can go back on, OK head set on a Honda $80 + machine shop cost's $100 (no point machining the head nice and flat if all the valve seats are leaking) stretch bolts and a few hydraulic cam followers $100.

Are you saying the clutch could be replaced for around $200 with labor??? I was thinking more like $800+. About the heads gaskets, I could do that myself. I have freinds that would machine them for free. Repairs in the hundreds of dollars don't worry me much. If it's going to cost $2000+ then I would reconsider.

[rjfvillarosa]

I was trying to judge the prices against what I used to charge for this type of work in the UK, I have just done a cylinder head on a Pontiac here in PR and the machining costs were $120, that was for planing the head, three new valve guides and all the seats recut, I bought the head set from www.autopartsgiant.com and it was about $85 plus shipping and I get a commission on the sale because I clicked it through my web site so not bad all told. I am not sure what a clutch kit would cost for one of those but its front wheel drive so drop the suspension on the left hand side so you can get the drive shaft out, to get the gearbox out, that should not be more than about 4 to 5 hours for the whole job about $250 I guess with the parts.

[Hi Ho]

If you're right then I feel a lot better already. I was willing to pay $800+ for a clutch job. I guess I should have looked into it more.

About the paint. I could do it myself with my paint sprayer. My dad has a commercial house sprayer but it has interchangable nozzles and he says he can get a fine nozzle for painting a car. I could just paint the damaged area. I don't think matching paint would be difficult because the undamaged areas aren't faded much if at all. When the trunk was replaced (hit by boat trailer in parking lot) the body shop matched the color perfectly. Unfortunately a roof/hood job at the same place would cost $1600 (had it in for an estimate). How do you think it would work to do it myself? I would sand it down and prime it. I'm just not sure how it would blend with the old paint. How would I do it so there is no line?

[rjfvillarosa]

You are not going to especially with red, red looks like joseph's coat of many colours under sodium street lamps at night, it is one of the worst colours to match, even the primer can make a difference. If what I can see in the picture is right, you have what they call "base coat and laquer" and the laquer is peeling, the base coat is a solid colour with no shine but lots of depth and the laquer gives it a shine. The best way to blend a colour is to soft edge it, but that is hard, dont be too fussy and just get it painted to a broken edge, ie: a door edge or a hood edge, any where that the panel physically changes into another panel.

Just a thought but on the panels where the laquer is peeling, is there any damage to the red paint? can you see primer or bare metal anywhere? or is it just the laquer peeling?

[Hi Ho]

It is just the laquer. The paint underneath is in good shape. It's not really "peeling" rather cracking and turning white. I can scratch it off with my fingernail. I always thought it was clear coat. We did try new clearcoat from a can but after a few months it looked just the same as it did before. Here are some pictures of when we applied new clearcoat: Before, Closeup, Sanded, After. If I were to simply apply new laquer/clearcoat how would I go about getting good quality stuff?

EDIT: Also, how did the body shop match the trunk so well if red paint is so difficult to match? It is literally a perfect match.

[glc]

I don't care how good a shape it's in, with 300K there's the metal fatigue issue and it's a unibody vehicle. Back to the head gasket issue - the odds are 50/50 at best that the head could even be salvaged once you pull it apart. There's more than just warpage to consider. When it goes (yes - when, not if) it's replace the engine. Cost of parts and labor to rebuild are higher than to drop a good boneyard engine in.

If you are going to do anything with the paint, just prep and paint the whole car. Don't try to match it.

[rjfvillarosa]

Some one in that body shop must have had a very good eye for colour match, red and black are the two worst colours, red looks just ok in sunlight but under sodium street lamps it is terrible. All the paint work I had done during the twenty years of running the sportscar restoration centre I had, was sent out to friends who owned paint shops and I can remember the discussions over colour matching, always the gripes would be because of red, it was something to do with the orange tones in the red, if it wasn't spot on the orange showed up more or less than it should, hence the reason red looks so bad under yellow sodium lamps. I restored a red Ferrari 308GTB once and after about a year it came back with a scratch, off it went to the paint shop and it looked fine once it was repaired, but after we got it back and before the customer picked it up, it sat outside one evening while we were closing and I could have cried, under the sodium lamps the painted area was a different colour, it took about five attempts to get a good colour match, one that stood to day and night lighting.
I was going to suggest that as your car is no show winner BUT you want it to look nice, why not use 1000 grit wet and dry or one of the green scouring pads for washing dishes and copious amounts of water with the wet and dry paper and copious amounts of soap and water with the scouring pads and just feather the existing laquer, after that try giving it a coat of clear laquer, you are going to need to be very very gentle because what ever is on the surface of the red is going to be magnified by the laquer coat, just ease off the laquer and feather it whatever you do don't mark the red, try a small unimportant area first and use auto laquer not some clearcote crap from a hardware place it is not the same.

GL. you must have had an issue with an aluminium cylinder head?? whats up? all ally heads are completely recoverable UNLESS they are cracked, or they have been planed down to their maximum limit, what happened mate?

[Hi Ho]

I forgot to mention that the head was removed about two years ago to fix a valve which broke. The head was machined and put back on with a new head gasket.

[Redfallon]

If you *really* want to do it, I'd do as glc said. Sand/prep/prime the car yourself if at all possible and have maaco shoot a low cost paint job on it. Personally the maaco shop in my area is crap AFAIK, but prepping it yourself might make it bearable. A lot of body shops won't touch a complete paint job, as there's no money in it, because of the time/labor involved. Having connections, of course, changes that slightly. The one's that will do it for anyone are going to charge an arm and a leg.

[glc]

The parts and labor cost to completely refurbish a head are approaching the cost of good boneyard engines now, and at 300k+, you might as well rebuild the bottom end while you are at it - see where we are going? I have a friend with a Dodge Aries with a 2.5, it just blew the head gasket at 140k miles - and it's getting a boneyard engine - cheaper than a rebuild. Those engines are about $600 used.

[rjfvillarosa]

I understand what you are saying about the rest of the components being worn out and maybe a quick boneyard swap is more economical. The problem is being an exmechanic and doing the work myself I keep forgetting that on top of the machining cost's everyone else has to pay the labour cost, which obviously can make the job uneconomical.

[glc]

Yep - and labor here is around $80/hr at independent garages and $100 at dealers.

[rjfvillarosa]

Originally Posted by glc Yep - and labor here is around $80/hr at independent garages and $100 at dealers.

HOW MUCH!!!!!!! I should go back to being a mechanic.

[HAL9000]

That's a lot higher than here... here you're looking about $50 per hour independent, $85 dealer... and that's in CDN funds.

[glc]

You think the mechanic sees much of that? Even the one man shops here get at least $65/hr, it costs a lot of money to keep a business going here.