Tech Support = NOT always India

[MaximumDMA]

Ok, I get the tech support thing. I get frustrated too at the pathetic move on the part of companies like Dell, Microsoft, Linksys and Symantec among many that are pretty much destroying everyone's trust in tech support. I work tech support for Dentrix Dental Systems and I have had a number of people that, even though I am about as white bread as it gets, ask what part of India I am from. UGH! Most of the time when I say I am from America and work in Utah they laugh it off, others will push and assume I am lying because that is what they tell them to do. The support for hire in India always answers this phone with this total strong accent and a name like "Fred" or "John". I work on a street that houses companies like Symantec, Sento (McAfee), MetLab, and HP. When I see people from Symantec I had to ask. This is the truth:
Comanies are going overseas because it is amazingly cheaper and they can save even more money by hiring people that are going to adhere to policy and not care about arguing with you to charge for support or not helping you because you are approximately 17 minutes outside of your 30 days free support. First, the Indian companies approached just about every major technical support division of every company and offered them support paying employees that on average make about $2.00 an hour. This one supervisor makes about $2.50 an hour and this was a lot. Plus, no overtime price increase. Time and a half does not exist in India. Also, no paid holidays, time off, vacation, sick or benefits. To add to the sweet pot, Indian companies, thanks to free trade and monopoly laws can use our phone lines and crossovers that were installed by hard working Americans can be used by Indian tech support to make the cost of phone calls the same as they are in the states, where the initial call is placed to before it is transferred to India. To add even more, they save so much money because they have limited deniability. If someone sues because ofthe support, the Indian company has contractes with them. This means the contract says they are responsibe for all lawsuits and good luck suing India. Who do you serve? In your license agreement you agree to not hold them responsible for other companies or contractors that fail to meet your needs. Plus, an Indian can tell you that you can't have that or they do not have any concern about the time you spent on hold or that you are going to pay the money to get support and shut up and listen to you rant about the money and then ask "Visa or Matercharge?"

All in all, they save tons of money, know you will buy the product, and really don't care if you like support or not. They can say that they have 24.7 support to sell you on that they are a great American Company.
On the some people get calls in America, well, yes, they would have to be morons not to take a few calls. Microsoft has a small handful of higher techs that take calls. There is a sad company out here call Convergys that is actually one of the dirtbag companies that do tech support for multiple companies like MS that actually pioneered the Indian market. Good old Utah Company (they have a website convergyssucks.com) that prides itself on screwing all of us. Good news is we have bolstered the economy in India to the best in years. Yeah

So that is the sad truth, but not for all companies. I am not saying that eventually we won;t go Indian, but for a guy that is a year and a half away from his IT degree, America is still the best. Remember that tech support may have been labeled Indian, but it is the companies that are still made and played in the USA that keep the idea alive. I am not against anyone looking for a job, just companies that post the flag on anything and sell their souls to India.

[Stryker]

What exactly is the point of this?


(additional comments removed by moderator)

[David M]

Whats that mean Stryker?

[Panama Red]

Let's try to stay away from the near inflammatory remarks folks. I'm not sure I understand MaximumDMA's point either, unless it's just a way to vent frustration. But let's not question the motives without knowing what they are. Stryker, I'm removing your comments.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Panama Red Let's try to stay away from the near inflammatory remarks folks. I'm not sure I understand MaximumDMA's point either, unless it's just a way to vent frustration. But let's not question the motives without knowing what they are. Stryker, I'm removing your comments.

Agreed...
My apologies guys. I was in a "mood" when I posted it last night and probably shouldn't have. Now that it's the morning after, I'm glad you removed it PR.
Thanks,
Stryker

[MaximumDMA]

I did not get the comments that were aced, but probably for the best. I think though there is a deserved explanation. I was looking around and I noticed several threads (one in paticular labeled Dell tech support)that basically lableled tech support as all Indian. Now, the posts were not baching, and really did not offend me any more than I am a tech support professional. Sounds funny but it really does come to heart when the job I do everyday is unappreciated by my peers, those who did the same thing to get where they are today. I am less than 2 years away from my IT degree, and this job helps me gain the skills that are necessary for learning to communicate technologically with others. We have all suffered in the trenches someway or another, some did dishes, some mopped floors, some ran errands and some did support. All honorable jobs because they are honest. I mean that implicitly. I have more respect for the guys I see that are behind the counter at MsDonald's then I do for the one's I see bragging about the free unemployment or Welfare. I read these posts and I was really upset at how I was viewed. Not offended, the wholething made me feel bad that I was viewed as a stereotype. One tech site I was a part of for over a year had some new moderators that began to exercise thier power by consistently removing posts that were by tech support as we were the plague. What would the world be without the guy who gets you your Big Mac, would you get it yourself? Or the guy who gets the gas to the station? How about the guy who tells you tonight you and your children can rest easy because tonight, they are watching your back defending your freedom, and they are willing to die for you? What about me? 30,000 offices depend on me to have a great day. I have been awarded 15 excellence certificates in eight months with my company. I enjoy my job and most of the people I work for. It is hurtful when someone calls up and starts yelling informing me I am from India, but you guys are there, you have been there. I have no problem, as I said with the post with anyone looking for a job, I am happy that India has an increasing economy, everyone deserves to work. Especially now, India needs our help, but because a large number of companies have taken jobs from Americans (I know I work with them) to save a buck, it doesn't mean that all companies are doing it. We are all people, all part of the same race, the human race, I would never want to hurt anyone, that post was defending me and what I do. I did rant about what I had heard from my Buddy at Symantec, that one dragged, your right Stryker, but I joined this place because I saw so many supportive threads and no one attacking anyone, which is why what was stricken from the post scares me , but I was venting, why not you, you have that right, and I thank Panama for securing all our pride. And thank you Stryker for taking whatever was said back. I do apologize if anything I said offended you, I was attacking the stereotype, not anyone in particular.
As a last note I want to say something about the people tha make our life everyday function. The checker, the gas man, the cable guy, Stryker, Panama, David, and myself deserve a lot more everyday than we get, what if tomorrow we were handed pink slips so they ship our job somewhere cheaper? There would be no personality to bag the groceries, the cable would be out, the gas wouldn't be there, and we would all have a post like mine. With the exception of military. My buddy died 13 months ago today in a friendly fire incident in Northern Iraq. God bless him, his family and all those who serve, they are the true heroes.
Please forgive me if I offended anyone, I am looking for a place here and it might take awhile for all of you to get to know me. Have a great night.

[kstatefan40]

Welcome to PCmech, DMA. You found the best forums and group of people on the internet!

Personally, it amazes me whenever I do get a support call answered by someone who speaks English well. It is growing more rare by the day, but there is that slim chance that every once in a while, I will get one who does. I salute you for what you do, and personally, I will buy from a company just because they have English-speaking tech support. And you are right, we don't give enough respect to the little guys who do labor jobs that no one else wants to do in our economy. I hate when my high school friends whine about not having any money. Like you said, there is always mcdonalds, and I do many small things to get money: mowing yards, computer work, website design, writing, etc. There are many jobs out there if some people would be willing to swollow their pride and apply somewhere, or go after.

Anyway, welcome to the 'mech. Make yourself feel at home - we have a huge knowledge base here, and the addition of someone like yourself is always welcome.

[Stryker]

Hiya MaximumDMA,

Just to let you know, I took no offence to your post and you make some very good points in both of your messages. I think I just took it out of context and assumed a couple of things I shouldn't have, which caused me to get a tad confrontational. Thankfully we have level-headed Moderators to keep us in line.

The last thing I would want to do is lower your opinion of PC Mech! This is a fantastic forum, and the only internet forum I am a member of. This is due to the maturity level and the honest desire to help that is displayed by every member of this forum (although, some of us flare up a little sometimes ). You will find some of the most indepth and advanced technology discussions on the web in these forums, and you'll also see some of the most obscure and crazy discussions too (ahh... hail to the General Discussion forum). Us tech geeks have some strange ideas!

Anyway, 'nuf said. Welcome to PC Mech MaxDMA!
Stryker

[MaximumDMA]

It's awesome to be here too guys. I appreciate the open welcome and the fact that this is a wealth of knowledge emporium that I can no doubt grow from. Each of you have. I am right now taking the classes on overclocking by Professor Tin. . I am glad to be a part of this site and I hope to learn from most of you. After the post last night I went in and started to read Stryker's post from the past. Not to do anything more than get to know you. Congratulations on the ticket, I hope the movie was all it is cracked up to be! My 7 Year old Son and I are renting all 5 movies to (Star Wars 1,2,4,5,6) and having an all nighter. I have never seen any of the movies, and my Son is just about having kittens wanting to see it. It's nice, we are still close, he has to see it with me. But in a house with 3 women, besides never getting the bathroom, we have to stick together! Anyway, congrats on the tickets, they are selling here for 500 dollars each for tonight! Whatever! Back to the subject, Stryker you are very intelligent, I am impressed with your attitude on the posts, you are very friendly. I am glad that I got to know you!
I hope to start posting more about tech things, but right now I am enjoying all the information on overclocking and hardware purchases. I have taken in so much information. One last time guys, thanks for making me feel welcome! By the way Stryker, how was the movie?

[Stryker]

Thanks for the kind words MaxDMA!

The movie was amazing! Lots of action, closed off the story really well, and not too much cheesy acting (but there was a little ).

Good luck with Overclocking 101. You're in good hands wth Tin.
Stryker

[David M]

Max,
You cant take the mean statements of people who are either clueless or idiots to heart. Just roll your eyes and get on with the tech support call with the understanding that you are a better person. In fact, towards the end of the call offer them a good curry recipe just to mess with their little pea brains...LOL

[MaximumDMA]

I like that idea, a recipe, that would weird them out. Honestly, I have come to accept that people feel that if they yell, they get what they want. Doctors will get on the ohone with the holier than thou attitude that they are involved and they will command you to do what they want, or the assistants that call up and when you tell them to do something, tell you that will not work. I ususally say something like, "Ok, how do you think we can fix this?".That usually stops them in their tracks. I had ont lady threaten to kill me. Stupid threat, but consider the source. I am going to try the curry thing, that is ingenious, I will tell you how it goes!

[sdkfz]

The largest cost to a company is the human employee. According to the Bureau of Labor Stats

Average (per hour costs)
Total Employer Compensation Cost - 25.57
Wages and Salaries - 18.07 or 70% of above
Benefits - 7.50 or the remaining 30% of above


So for our $25.57 per hour total cost to our company can you really blame them for wanting to knock $23.57 on average off this cost? (based on original post numbers). Of course you have to take into account the costs for buildings to work in that are also taken out for the move abroad.

table for these numbers
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.t01.htm

whole article
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.nr0.htm

[MaximumDMA]

I wanted you guys to know about my experience with Compaq tech support. The following is the detail of the call that I can remember. The call lasted over 40 minutes, so I really only got the big parts of the beginning and the really interesting conversation we had in the last ten minutes of my call. I felt bad after this call because I really did not give this guy enough credit, he is doing anything we would do. He needs to feed his family and there is a job. He tried to lie at first about where he was, poorly, but he did not stick to it and wanted me to actually help him. Not a bad guy by theend of the call. He obviously did not know all that much, but he was very helpful for me. I am sorry if it is not perfect, I can not remember it all, it was a very long call with alot of silence. But the end was priceless. You might find this funny.


I had to call support for my Wife's Laptop. I called HP (Haven't you heard? HP is the new Compaq this summer!). I was transferred from an HP American voice answering machine (even though I did dial the Compaq support line) that when I pushed the number diverting me along the pathway to the Presario Support to an indian named "Dave". He was less than helpful- at first. After I explained my speed dilemma, he stood silence for a solid minute. I mean I intentionally waited for a response after my question, "What else can be done to speed up this computer- hardware speaking?". After the minute he says, "Hello?". I told him that I was still there, I was just waiting on an answer, I assumed he was looking it up. He asked me to repeat my question. I did, and he told me that I could disable the Anti-Virus. I have to admit I was baffled by the lack of what I said for ten minutes and the hardware part of the question, he says Anti-Virus. I told him I already removed all Anti-Virus traces and was working with a fresh install of WIndows XP Professional Service Pack 2. He said he can not support me because the OS that came with this was "Windows 98 Edition number 2". I tried to explain that the Laptop came with XP home and he had the nerve to tell me not to make things up. I asked for his Supervisor and after like 7-8 minutes on hold, he comes back on and tells me he is the Supervisor. I asked him why he had not just helped me, and did he want me to fax him the specs off the Compaq website. He kept just being silent. Whenever I would say something it took a good 15 seconds before he said a word. I was so frustrated. I asked if there was someone else I could speak to and all they said was "no". "There is no one there I can speak to above you?"- "no." UGH! I asked if there was a number in America that I could speak to someone else and he said,

"WE ARE AMERICANS".

I did feel bad because maybe I did not give him a chance, strong accent, hard to understand, maybe I jumped to conclusions, people do it to me.

"Where are you located at?", I asked him.

He says, I kid you not, "F-O-E-N-I-X California".

I said, in a very low, resigned voice, "There is no "F-O-E-N-I-X California". (I already knew I was not going to win this, the convesation after this changed gears towards discovery.

"Where is F-O-E-N-I-X?", he asks. (This shocked me, it was my turn to sit there without saying anything.)

I said, "There is no F-O-E-N-I-X that I know of, there is a F-E-E-N-I-X".

"My accent is bad" he says, "I meant F-E-E-N-I-X, California".

"There is no Phoenix in California."

"Where then?"

"There is one in Arizona", I tell him.

"Thank You" (he said this very nicely I might add, I think he was appreciative that I helped him).

"Next time if you say Phoenix, Arizona, they might believe you."

He asks, "Where is Arizona?"

"Do you have a map?"

"No."

"What about the Internet?"

"No Internet"

"How do you do support for a major corporation like HP and not have at least internet access?"

"I don't know"

"Me either", I said.

"yeah", he replies.

"How do you access information about the company?"

"Assess?", he responded.

"Access, how do you get information on the people that call and to know what is going on with people's support."

"Notebook"

"Laptop computer?"

"Paper"

"Yeah?" I asked, so you don't log the calls?"

"Log?"

"Put them into the computer so everyone there at your support center can continue issues."

"Oh, the Supervisor takes notebooks and puts it for HP to know."

"Do you have a computer?"

"Yeah."

"HP?"

"Dell."

"But you support HP?"

"and Dell and Compaq and Linksys (This is so sad, I used to work as support for Linksys) and many more."

"And yet no computer?"

"Maybe soon."

"Is this normal?", I think I was getting too nosey at this point, but I could not resist.

"No, I am joke, I have computer. I am support for HP, of course I have computer. I need to help more people, is that all?"

"I am not trying to offend you, I do tech support in the USA and I just always wondered....."

"You need to complain about our support?"

"No, I understand why you are there, there is a job available and you need money, the same as me. Neither one of us is at fault for what companies decide."

"Thank you."

"I am impressed, how do you support so many companies?"

"We have sheets in notebooks about all the problems and what to say. If we do not know it, we can have others from the United States support call them."

"So what about me? You could not help me."

"You need upgrade, not support. I do not build the computers."

"Good point."

"Thank You."

"Do you like it there?"

"Where?"

"India?"

"Yes, it is beautiful. Nice place and not too expensive."

"So your not in Phoenix?"

"Yes, Phoenix. Phoenix, Arizona."

"Good catch. Thank you for everything, I always wondered so much about outsourcing."

"Outsourcing?"

"Nothing, see you on the beach in Arizona."

"OK. Thank you for calling."

"Thanks for your help."

I had no heart to tell him there was no beach in Arizona, but he actually helped me alot. I realized that it is the American companies are the fault here, not any one technician. No, they could learn more, but maybe they are. This guy was laid back and not afraid to ask me where Feenix was so that next time he would be right. I am sure he has no problem telling anyone where he lives, he is told not too. Why the companies feel they need to lie to us. I was going through several sites on outsourcing and saw these companies that are dedicated to helping larger corporations lay us off.
www.e-isn.com/whyindia.htm
www.outsource2india.com
The last one does not hide it's intent in the name. It hurts to read about how I as a huge CEO can save tons of money by shutting down large call centers that employ people. One said that outsourcing is an accountants dream, no pencils, no buildings, no people.
These companies it boasts saving money by putting people out of work:
"India has effectively provided efficient software solutions to Fortune 500 companies. Citibank, Morgan Stanley, Wal-Mart, AT&T, General Electric, Reebok, General Motors, Sony, Boeing, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Swissair, United Airlines, Philips, General Electric, IBM, Reebok, Lucas, British Aerospace, General Motors, and Sears are some companies relying on software companies in India."
It is a scary trend, very scary. What happened to "Made in the USA"? What happened to the security in knowing that you could talk to a person that knew how we think and feel. If someone does not understand your reactions or what they mean, how do they empathize with you? How do they handle each call on a personal basis? They can't. They give these people scripts and then expect them to handle not only the problems, but the people that are mad because the person on the other end is not satisfied with outsourcing. Not to switch it to much, but Dave only did what we would have done. There was an open job and he took it. As well he should have. It is really complicated because it would be so easier if everyone spoke one language and acting traditionally the same way. But that would be boring. I hope that these companies bring the jobs back. We blame Bush or Clinton for job loss, but they have little to do with an act that has put over a million people out of work in the states. This thread has run it's course, and I have given you my entire view on it. My attitude was wrong, I always focused my energy on the people, but it is not the people, deep down we are all the same, we all need jobs and we all need to survive. We both love and live the same way. Dave was unhelpful technically speaking, he did not know the product, he assumed that because the laptop was a few years old they had Windows 98 on it, but in talking to me I found a regular guy, unfortunately getting the raw end of the deal. American companies are exploiting them, they should be more mad than us. Dave made one othe great point, he doesn't make the computers, well pretty soon, we won't either.

Thanks for listening to my rants and my revalations, this post has given me a lot perspective, maybe just getting it out was what I needed- and Dave

[Tech Guy]

Sometimes you may even get tech support in Canada.... . I basicly do ISP support for over 150 differnet companies ranging from basic dial-up service to wireless support. I also do webhosting support. So much to remember. The majority of the support we do is into the United States, and we are not aloud to tell them our exact location, the most we can say is that we are located on the east coast.

[Stryker]

Another Canadian in the forum eh?

How do you keep the penguins quiet in the background to talk on the phone without interuption? I'm also suprised you can get an internet connection in your igloo!

[MaximumDMA]

I have always heard that I can run my computer with like dual processor dual boards overclocked to an illegal degree because the ice keeps my system running always fast!! That and the beer, I hear it rocks there.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by MaximumDMA I have always heard that I can run my computer with like dual processor dual boards overclocked to an illegal degree because the ice keeps my system running always fast!!

The only problem is that the sound of the system booting seems to attract the polar bears. They like the pretty flashing lights and stuff too.

And by the way, it does rock up here!

[MaximumDMA]

My Sister-in-Law is serving her mission in Canada. Toronto area. She says that Canada is so much better than the states, maybe we all need to look into igloos.

[Stryker]

I've never lived anywhere else in the world to compare, but I love Canada.

Good to hear your Sister-In-Law is enjoying it here. I'm just outside the GTA (Greater Toronto Area), but still only a 20-30 minute drive on the Q.E.W. to get Downtown Canada. I'm not much of a city boy though. I would live in the middle of nowhere if I could.

[Tech Guy]

Haha, yeah my igloo keeps my pc cool for super wicked overclocking, and we have real beer up here, none of that watered down stuff. Canada is one thing, you should check out Prince Edward Island, it's beautiful here in the summer, and sooo much golfing.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Tech Guy Haha, yeah my igloo keeps my pc cool for super wicked overclocking, and we have real beer up here, none of that watered down stuff. Canada is one thing, you should check out Prince Edward Island, it's beautiful here in the summer, and sooo much golfing.

Probably visiting PEI & Nova Scotia this year sometime (hopefully this year, but may get delayed to next year). My father-in-law was born and raised in Lunenburg so they go back every few years, and my wife and I are hoping to join them this year. I've only seen pictures, but from what I've seen it's one of the most beautiful parts of Canada.