Shootin' stuff

[Colonel Sanders]

Today I went out to practice shooting with a Smith & Wesson model 686 .357 Magnum revolver (about a month old) and I took along a box of 50 Winchester shells which were purchased at Wal-mart. Out of these 50 rounds, 5 did not fire on the first attempt. Pulled the trigger, the primer was struck, the rounds failed to go off. . . So with these rounds I proceeded to attempt to fire them again, and the rounds would go off on the second attempt. I'm not sure that is the safest practice, but at least it produces the end result of a fired round. Is this a bad idea which I should not continue? What should I do with a round that fails to fire?

Anyways, what is more important is the fact that out of 50 shells, 5 failed to fire on the first attempt. That is a 10% failure rate in the Winchester ammo. Prior to this, I have shot about a total of 400 Winchester rounds through the pistol, and only 2 or 3 had failed to shot- less than 1%, but this time the percentage is alarmingly high. All the ammo has been Winchester purchased from the same Wal-mart on two different purchases. I thought a well known gun (and ammo?) maker like Winchester would have produced better rounds than this. Is a 10% failure rate acceptable or not? Is it possible that the plain Winchester ammo from Wal-mart is a lower-grade ammo then the rest of their ammo and more likely to fail, or is Winchester ammo just bad in general? What type of ammo should I use? So far I only want/need cheap ammo for target practice, I don't need anything fancy, but I hate haveing such a high rate of failure.

L J

[bailey]

try a box purched from another store like your local sporting store, I think wal-mart has the amo set to there own spects and also could be second grade stuff, things like that I will not purchase from wal-mart at all,
I have always reloaded all my own amo and have never had a misfire.

[juppy]

I started having problems with Winchester ammo awhile back too. These were Winchester Super X .22 long rifle hollow points and they had the same problem yours did.....click, no fire. The casings also seemed to be a little too big as well because my .22 is semi-automatic and every time it'd eject the empty and try to load the other, the fresh shell would get hung about halfway in and I'd have to manually push the ejector knob the rest of the way forward to get it to load. I thought maybe the gun was just dirty but after a thorough cleaning it still didn't fire on the second bullet and the third one got stuck again. I stopped using those and changed to Remington instead and haven't had a single problem yet (knock on wood). Oh yeah, BTW, all of these were purchased at Wal-Mart too.

[Colonel Sanders]

I'm very tempted to start reloading my own ammo. Any suggestions? What is a rough estimate for the innital setup cost?

Currently, me and my Dad own a .243 Winchester bolt action rifle, Remmington model 1100 12guage shotgun, Springfiled Arms .45 M1911 ultra-compact, 9mm Glock 17, and the Smith & Wesson .357 Mangum revolver. The revolver or deer rifle would be easy to reload to cause they don't throw the shells to bad, but shooting the .45 or 9mm in a creek bed with ammo flying into weeds makes collecting empty shells pretty difficult. . . Any tips for finding rounds with the semi-autos? Finding a weed-free shooting area is almost impossible where I live (don't know of any palce that meets that requirement).

Would you be able to recomend a good on-line or mail order retailer to order ammo from?

TIA, L J

[bailey]

U usally get my bullets, primers, and powder from a local gun shop and the casings can be had from many of the advertised gun catalogs.
use a good brand powder measure, and carbide dies in a good bench press.
I have used the same press with shells from 380 auto to 44 mags.

[jayb1234]

RCBS makes pretty good equipment. There is a guide on thier site that will give you a pretty good idea of what you need. http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=1

[Byte 2.0]

to address the what to do, if a round does not fire.

Disclaimer. I am not a professional in this area. follow at your own risk.
First and for most, if a round does not fire on first attempt. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, it could actually go off at aim time now.
second, I have proceeded to fire the round again,

Another thing, Revolvers (spelling) put another twist on this, do to the fact if you try to fire again, the Cycillander will turn and put the bullet in an unsafe position if it were to go off, in that case, I would wait a very long time before doing anything with the gun aimed in a safe location.

[EzyStvy]

Reloading your own ammo is pretty expensive and very labor intensive. “IF” you shoot a ton of ammo you’ll eventually break even on the equipment investment and save money.

[mbossman2]

all ammo has lot numbers on them....I would pop an email/letter off to winchester, letting them know the type of ammo, the lot number, where you got it and your experience...they may have a positive response...

from what I can see on misfires: wait at least 60 seconds, slowly and carefully open the cylinder (all the while keeping the gun aimed down range) and remove the offending cartridge, then carefully dispose of the cartridge...

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by mbossman2 all ammo has lot numbers on them....I would pop an email/letter off to winchester, letting them know the type of ammo, the lot number, where you got it and your experience...they may have a positive response... from what I can see on misfires: wait at least 60 seconds, slowly and carefully open the cylinder (all the while keeping the gun aimed down range) and remove the offending cartridge, then carefully dispose of the cartridge...

I do believe I will try to contact Winchester. So far, I believe every round that has misfired has had the primer pushed in too far. Could be wrong, but a lot seem to have that problem.

Where do you recomend disposing of such a bullet? I'm sure a fire is a bad idea. I doubt I'd really want to put it in a bag with other trash and stuff surrounding the primer. I think I would have to get a special box for disposing of such rounds?

L J

[Redfallon]

I've had bad luck with Winchester ammo as well. I have had excellent luck with Federal rounds. I've even purchased some Federal .22's from Walmart.

[mbossman2]

ranges usually have a box for this, but at home I think burying it might suffice.

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by mbossman2 ranges usually have a box for this, but at home I think burying it might suffice.

While I live in a house without really any backyard (on a corner lot) and a sodded lawn. Digging up a hole would deffinately upset my parents and probbably neighbors (they complain if they yard doesn't look nice). I suppose I could burry them out in the creek where I shoot, however I have no idea what else will go back there. What kind of box do you recomend?

L J

[mbossman2]

the ones I have seen are cast concrete with a fitted concrete top...not sure where they get them...

[blue60007]

I imagine that's something you make yourself.

[Colonel Sanders]

That does sound like it'd be a bit hard to buy or even make. I think the burying idea will suffice if a round does fail to fire after second firing attempt.

L J

[Computer Hobbyist]

I would be tempted to think that you have a problem with your pistol. A 10% failure rate is way, way out of the norm. I would probably take the pistol to a gunsmith for a good professional look over.

As to reloading, you break even on the equipment pretty quickly. The components are very cheap. The equipment is modestly expensive. The labor and concentration are intense. Safety is number one. Knowing the entire process cold is critical. The feeling of satisfaction in firing your own handloads is second to none. Find someone to teach you. Don't try to teach yourself. There are lots of good sites online.

Here is a good place to start.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/php...forum.php?f=46

[tomster2300]

First of all I know nothing about ammunition, but I do want to comment on how you're getting your results and how you're making your claims. I'm no statistics whiz, but I do know that you're basing your opinions off an extremely small sample of bullets fired. While five out of 50 seems to point to Winchester being poor quality, you also stated that out of 400 previous shots only 2-3 failed to fire. That's incredibly low - you even said so yourself. I would base my overall opinions off the higher sample (400 bullets) rather than the marginally lower 50. According to the law of large numbers, the larger your sample becomes, the the closer to equilibrium your results will get to (thus the more accurate your results become).

I'd say you lucked out and picked up a bad box when you fired the 50 rounds. You would have to fire a good many more rounds before you could achieve a true representation of the quality of Winchester ammunition. If you don't plan on firing anymore, then base your opinions off the 400 rounds fired and not the 50.

EDIT: Also you have numerous lurking variables which will bias your results, including the manufacturing environment of the ammunition, the packaging procedure of the ammunition, the quality of the pistol, the current condition of the pistol (is it damaged or misaligned?), the condition of the ammunition when fired from your gun (did you leave it out in an unsatisfactory environment for too long, is it damp or wet?), etc. There are many factors, many unseeable, which affect the fail rate of the ammunition.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: But to play devil's advocate with myself (that's kind of odd and scary I suppose) if the misfiring is creating an unsafe situation (which is it obviously is) then it would be smarter to switch ammunition brands just to be on the safe side and prevent any unneeded injury.

Good luck and have fun .

[bailey]

there is no room for faulty ammo, there is no percentage for falures.
there is no excuse for any missfire, it is sometimes a matter of life and death that will depend on this, so lets not try and make excuses for any falure on ammo.
no percentage of good and bad is accecptable.

just my 2 cents worth.

[FLG]

I know nothing about guns, but after doing a google search, if a round fails to fire check the manufactures instructions on what to do with it.

[Computer Hobbyist]

You are right the percentage of failure should be zero, but that is just not reasonable. Some percentage of everything fails. That said 5 out of 50 or even 2 or 3 out of 400 is not normal. Lots of things could be responsible. The most likely cause is that the firing pin isn't striking the primer with sufficient force. That could be caused by a defect in the firing mechanism or by seating the primer too deeply in the case. He is talking about factory ammuntion so bad seating is not nearly as likely as a small but significant defect in the firing mechanism.

[Jaggannath]

On the back of the bullet, have a look at where the firing pin should strike... is there a nice clean round indentation?? If not, it could be your firing pin,

I'd follow mbossmans suggestion and write to the manufacturer querying, it's likely they'll send you free ammo to thank you for bringing it to their attention

[bailey]

I don't think that zero tollarance is unreasonable. of the many thousands of rounds I have loaded in my life time, including rifle and hand gun, I have never had a miss fire, and I am sure that a factory load has a much better load tollarence than I could hope to have by hand loading, that is including if I used a lee loader.
but then its just my personal opinion any way.

just as a side note, my son-in-law works as matainance person at a plant in missouri that maks the rounds for the military, many differant calibers, and the machines they use are so out dated there pre-war machines, its surprising they don't get miss fires sometimes.

[Computer Hobbyist]

I have fired a lot of rounds. The only misfires I have had have been because of the rifle or pistol. Factory ammunition is built to exceedingly close tolerances. Only very rarely do they fail. If you shoot a lot you will realize that misfires do occasionally happen. Every, or nearly every, range has a place (often a heavy bucket) where you place your misfires for subsequent distruction. Anyway that is my experience.

There are two potential causes for the problem and the most likely is a minor defect in the pistol.

Oh, if you think that misfires never happen, in the old west a guy named Wild Bill Hickock was once knocked to a barroom floor. A bad man put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. There was a misfire. Hickock lived and became a wild west legend. Of course that happened in the 19th century, and not in the 21st century. There have been tremendous advances in firearm technology since the days of the wild west.

[David M]

Put your dead rounds in a steel ammo box. Thats what they are for. Remember its the bullet pushing against the gun and not the shell that gives the bullet any sort of real velocity. The powder going off inside a steel box is relatively harmless. An accidental discharge outside the gun might still hurt you but the chances of it penetrating a steel box I would think are pretty slim to none.

I agree with Jagg...check where your firing pin is hitting the back of the shell and check the depth of the indentation.

[SGS]

Back in the 1980's, I was into competitive shooting. I fired somewhere around 20 thousand rounds of commercial ammo without a single misfire. The failure rate for my handloads was about one per thousand.

I agree with baily, "there is no room for faulty ammo"!

I also agree with Computer Hobbyist. I'd have a gunsmith check out that revolver.

[sgtspector]

As a police officer for twenty + years and a range instructor for the last 6 I take 25 police officers to a range twice a year and each one shoots in the neighborhood of 200 rounds each time out. Thats 12,500 rounds each year and over 6 years that is 75,000 rounds fired. All Winchester. To the best of my recollection we have had maybe 5 defective rounds. I'm not here to defend winchester but i'd be looking at the gun and not the ammo. Most "misfires" are ultimately attributed to either outright weapon malfunction or poor weapon maintenance.

[Colonel Sanders]

The pistol is a Smith & Wesson, bought brand new, less than a month ago. The ammo has all been bought from Wal-mart, and stored inside my house, in their original boxes. Every round that has misfired that I have proceeded to examine has had a clear, round indention from the firing pin- and also on every round that I have examined the primer has appeared to be seated deeper than the other rounds.

I do believe that I did find a bad box of ammo, if I could still locate that box of ammo I would find the lot number and write Winchester. However, I do believe that was just an odd box. I'm going to assume that maybe the ammo sold at Wal-mart is a lower grade than what I would find at a good gun store. I do plan to try a box of Remmington ammo, and another box of Winchester ammo before contacting Winchester.

L J

[SGS]

I guess the only thing left to do is run five or six boxes of Federal or Remington through the gun and see what happens.

[jamesrpm]

I'd bet that the ammo Walmart sells is just the same as what you would buy in a gun store. Due to the liability issues no one sells seconds or lower grade ammo without leaving themselves open to law suits.