Debt rant

[cypher1919]

I for one am pretty sick of the commercials and info ads that run on a daily basis about living "debt free". What's wrong with debt? Absolutely nothing. Debt gives the majority of the population a reason to get up in the morning. Think about it(and this applies to most people not all, I know),If tomorrow someone offered you a unlimited supply of funds, and you had no obligation to pay it back, what would you do? The most common answer is usually "I would pay off my bills and buy a new house, car...etc". Then what? Would you go to work?
My job sucks, and most feel the same about their own, but I will speak for myself by saying Hell no I wouldn't go back to that hell hole. I would get myself put in jail at the spectacle I would make letting everyone know how much I hated the job and the life that comes with it. I would though, wonder around this beautiful country of ours with a video camera giving money away to people off the street, just to record their expressions. But that isn't what I am doing now. I am working in a very high stress job with very little pay(almost voluntary)living paycheck to paycheck. I do not complain about my debt, because my check does provide revenues for the government to do their job. That's why debt is good. Not only for the people that whisper in ol' uncle sams' ear, but for the freedoms it provides for me. In summary if (most people mind you, and be honest) we didn't have debt, we wouldn't work, the government could no longer afford to protect us, and our great nation as a whole would collapse. So put that 48" LCD on your Credit Card this Christmas, refi that house, spend the money on that project car or some other kind of junk that we don't allow ourselves to have out of fear of debt. We do the work, and every once in a while we should have the fun. Besides, its the patriotic thing to do.

[Stuey]

With all due respect, I think that it is irresponsible to say that debt is good. Debt limits opportunities and forces us to make choices about how to budget our funds.

On a graduate assistance stipend, I constantly have to put off purchases. I need to go clothes shopping but I keep postponing it. I would love a new TV, and a new sound system and a new video card, not to mention digi cam, etc etc, but when textbooks cost $600 on average a semester, and my food and gasoline bill is $400 a month, not to mention rent, I can't afford to be reckless. And this isn't considering the fact that I'm fortunate in the small amount of debt that I'm in.

I cannot image what would happen if many parents decided to splurge on a new car or a new plasma television instead of saving towards a child's college fund or retirement.

Me and my sister both went to public universities, but for our entire lives, our parents saved little bits here and there and put money away to ensure that we didn't go through too much trouble paying for our educations. Now, my parents still act extrememly frugally to ensure that they don't have to clip coupons after their retirement.

Besides that, less debt = better credit = better opportunities. I decided to get an online auto insurance quote, and b/c I have good credit, they said I'm elligible for an additional discount. If I need to take out a loan, better credit will serve me better than debt.

I agree that every now and then we should have fun and splurge a little bit (within our capabilities), but it just isn't healthy to live in a constant state of debt.

I kind of agree that without debt, nobody would work. I'd like to add that many people instead work in order to avoid debt. Also, even if someone is just breaking even, they'd still work to increase the opportunities available to them. For example, I can work in a supermarket and just break even. I don't want to break even, I want to be able to afford anything and everything of my desire. Therefore, some must work not to eliminate debt or to avoid debt, but to be enable stronger purchasing capabilities for themselves.

[Jester]

I am going to go out on a limb here and poke the fire. I imagine cypher that you are in a moderate to quite a bit of debt. It sounds to me like you are rationalizing and do not have a proper view of economics. This is not to say that you are stupid, but merely to point out that you are ill informed on your point of view. Debt does not support the government. Taxes do. Debt supports those companies to which provide you credit. Your credit card debt has nothing to do with the government. Our taxes support the budgets, and military, and other such government projects.

I disagree that debt is good, but I also don't think it is bad. It depends on the type pf debt. If it is fixed debt (don't know if that is the proper term) such as a car loan, or house payment then it can be considered good. It is only doing good for your credit as long as you pay the proper amount on time. The bad kind of debt is revolving debt. This is your credit cards and small appliance loans. These have high interest rates and don't go very far to establish credit. If your cards are not maxed and you pay the full balance on them every month and have 2 or three with High limits then they can be very good for your credit. I at one time had 7 or 8 and was 8000 in revolving debt alone. That is bad. luckily i got sent to Iraq. All of the extras that go into being a deployed service member are going to pay off what is left of my debt. I will be revolving debt free in 3 months. My credit rating is now over 700 and i can get most loans for the things that i want like a house, and new car. I will still have a reason to go to work. I have to pay to support my family.

That brings me to my next point. Being in debt does not make one get up and go to work. Needing to provide for yourself and pay for food, gas, and other necessities makes you go to work. That is how our economy works. You must work to earn money to pay for consumer goods and needs. If someone gave me all the money in the world I wold still work. I would find something that i truely enjoy doing like building computers and do that. It would still be a job. I would still by things. Did Bill Gates quite his Job? Look at all the people out there that havemore money than they know what to do with. THey have jobs. They are still making money.

Debt is a part of our economy. It helps us get those wants or needs that we want right then and have the money to pay for later. Credit is for emergencies or for planned LARGE purchases. Credit was never ment for car stereos, cds, iPods or other small purchases. If you don't have the money for a car stereo then go save money and buy it later. Its called delayed gratification. You work for the things you want. You put emergency purchase on credit cards and then pay them off at the end of the month. I'm sure I have missed a few of the finer points, but for you younger memers out there do research on your credit before you get it. I was young and thought that going out and getting a credit card and maxing it out and then paying it off would give me godd credit. It doesn't. Debt snowballs and is very hard to get out of if you don't control it. Make sure you are well informed about your credit before you get it.

[cypher1919]

Two very good viewpoints, and thanks for the input. And for clarification my debt isn’t bad. Utilities are what eat my lunch. I probably wasn’t clear enough on my personal viewpoint so I will explain.
I don’t believe debt itself to be a bad thing. If used properly like jester has stated, it can be very valuable in financial leverage, or on the other hand if misused can blow up in your face. I have experienced both sides. Understanding that reckless spending or living beyond your means can put you in a hole with limited options. I was just saying that all debt is not bad. My mortgage for instance. I am in debt to the lender, but I have a tool to negotiate with that I didn’t have before. I don’t have credit cards, or appliances on credit.( yard sales rock on furniture ). And the part about people not working, I’ll elaborate on that at a different time. Again guys thanks for the input.

[mbossman2]

the only truly good debt is debt used for the purchase of something that appreciates in value or brings greater income faster (over its usable lifetime) than the interest rate being charged. There are only 2 situations that i can think of that do that: purchasing a home and purchasing (and then using) an education.

Things like car loans are only slightly better than the above as they provide the mobility necessary to earn a living.

Revolving debt (credit cards, lines of credit etc) are universaly bad types of debt as the items generally purchased under such plans are luxury items, that depreciate in value. Regardless of the initial acquisition cost, unless you are on a 0% interest plan, any savings you might realize in the upfront purchase is lost over the long term with finance payments. remember a credit card with an interest rate of 12%, realizes a 1% per month surcharge on your purchase, so a $2000 purchase with a 12% interest rate paid off over 4 years equals a total purchase price of $2500, a 20% premium over paying cash...

Debt can be a great tool, but like any tool, if placed in the hands of the unwary can create untold havoc. Hovering unhealthy levels (adn types) of debt tie you down, limit your available options and put you in bad, financial positions. A poor credit rating can have wide and unforseen implications in the areas of:
Insurance - poor credit risks pay more in premiums
Future borrowing power - poor credit risks pay higher interest rates
Employment - many employers review credit history and candidates who display poor payment histories or burdensome debt loads can be excluded from the hiring process.
Housing - what is a monthly rent/mortgage payment but another form of payment plan? poor credit risks are forced to pay more and can be forced into lower standard housing.

Are these things unfair? Too bad, that is the way life works....no one ever said that life is fair.

I know that you have some sort of logic behind your statement, unfortunately, in the vast majority of cases, your logic is flawed...the assumption of debt that does bring increased financial return to the borrower is rarely a good idea.

[HAL9000]

I have enough debt... but I have eliminated one credit card over the past year.... kinda got behind on one again recently as I'm not gonna break my back shovelling snow again, so I broke the bank and bought a snow blower.... car only has 9 payments to go... so slowly getting cleaned up and would like to stay that way.

One thing I have learned though... debt or no debt... pay YOURSELF first... I've never really had a savings account before... there's not a whole lot in it... but at least it's something for emergency.

Personally... I like my job.... I would probably still quit if I won the lottery, I would rather somebody else in the unemployment line get a new job.... but I don't see my job as a chore to get up to every morning.

[David M]

I am in the same boat as mbossman. The only good debt is debt which will increase or has the potential to increase your net worth such as real estate, education or a business investment.

This is the ideal situation but most people don't live in an ideal world. The reality is that sometime your car breaks down and you need to use that credit card to get the car repaired. Unfortunately, you have no alternative than to pay the mechanic and to pay the accrued interest to the credit card company.

The bottom line is that some types of debt can be good, but most types of debt are bad because it does not increase your net worth or has no potential for increasing your net worth.

[doctorgonzo]

Sage words of advice from David M and mbossman. It's funny: just before I read this thread, I read this article over at the Motley Fool.

Debt that increases value, like education or a home mortgage, are good. Anything else is a waste of capital, so avoid it whenever you can. Since I got my first credit card almost ten years ago, I have paid $1.50 in interest, and that was on my very first purchase when I didn't need to. In 9 years I have paid out no credit card interest but received hundreds of dollars in cash back as bonuses.

Now, I know that my ability to avoid credit card debt has been a mix of good decisionmaking and luck, and sometimes life happens and you can't avoid it. The key is to pay iany debt you accrue down as quickly as possible so you can put your money in a better place.

[thefultonhow]

The only debt I have at this stage is credit card debt -- though I'm not sure it counts; I pay off my credit card each month in full so I never get charged interest. IMO it's silly to have debt if you have enough money to pay for something small outright -- for example, a computer, TV, or other piece of electronics.

[pam123]

You're joking, right?
The only debt that's good is one that can make you a better future ( I fully agree with mbossman2. ).

[rspassey]

cypher1919, it seems like you really dislike your job, well I just hope you realize that money isn't everything, and more importantly you should enjoy what you do and lead a happy life. There are lots of people out there who don't like their jobs, but they should have thought about that before they dropped out of highschool, or started smoking weed and giving up on their dreams. There are also people like my father who absolutely love their jobs, he works extra hours, works at home, and often doesn't use all his vacation days. Why? Because he loves getting up and going to work where he assumes a large responsibility and gets to manage his part of a global company despite the fact that he has to drive a hour and a half each day to get to work and come home, and that he often misses out on things like dinner with the family.

As for debt, I don't know much as I am still young and this issues don't impact my life. But I think that again, if you enjoy your job and are happy then there is no reason why not to have a little debt as long as it will allow you to move forward in life - such as a better education for your children or a safer more reliable new car or house etc, other than that you could stop and think "Do I really need this plasma tv? and realize that no I don't need it if it means I have to borrow money etc... and I that if I really want it I can save up to get it.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by ryan124712 cypher1919, it seems like you really dislike your job, well I just hope you realize that money isn't everything, and more importantly you should enjoy what you do and lead a happy life. There are lots of people out there who don't like their jobs, but they should have thought about that before they dropped out of highschool, or started smoking weed and giving up on their dreams. There are also people like my father who absolutely love their jobs, he works extra hours, works at home, and often doesn't use all his vacation days. Why? Because he loves getting up and going to work where he assumes a large responsibility and gets to manage his part of a global company despite the fact that he has to drive a hour and a half each day to get to work and come home, and that he often misses out on things like dinner with the family. As for debt, I don't know much as I am still young and this issues don't impact my life. But I think that again, if you enjoy your job and are happy then there is no reason why not to have a little debt as long as it will allow you to move forward in life - such as a better education for your children or a safer more reliable new car or house etc, other than that you could stop and think "Do I really need this plasma tv? and realize that no I don't need it if it means I have to borrow money etc... and I that if I really want it I can save up to get it.

folks...I'd like to introduce you to ryan124712, a man (wisdom counts for more than age) wise beyond his years...

[thefultonhow]

Yeah, if there comes a day when I'm doing a job just for the money and not because I actually enjoy it, I'll need a pretty big reality check, and probably a career change.

[HAL9000]

Originally Posted by mbossman2 folks...I'd like to introduce you to ryan124712, a man (wisdom counts for more than age) wise beyond his years...

I HIGHLY disagree here... see below

Originally Posted by ryan124712 There are lots of people out there who don't like their jobs, but they should have thought about that before they dropped out of highschool, or started smoking weed and giving up on living.

I don't think those relate to liking your job or not.... I know several people with really crap jobs.. but for some reason.. they love it.... I also know several weed smoking dropouts that have done quite well and like their work as well.

[rspassey]

Originally Posted by HAL9000 I don't think those relate to liking your job or not.... I know several people with really crap jobs.. but for some reason.. they love it.... I also know several weed smoking dropouts that have done quite well and like their work as well.

Now I am probably making myself sound even stupidier by following through with this, but perhaps it is just the way I fail at explaing - I will try to say it again in a different way:

It has nothing to do with the job itself (here I mean wether it is a good or crap job), it has to do with how happy you are while doing it, or how much you enjoy it. I could get a job at Burger king and find out I really really love it and hate all other jobs out there, so why shouldn't I work at burger king my entire life flipping burgers - at least I am happy doing that for a living. Now don't let that confuse me with living a high lifestyle, driving around in fancy cars and displaying my wealth buy purchasing beachside mansions. Which are two different things; material possesions which you use to compare yourself to others and the job which you have. To me I would rather enjoy my job and live an okay lifestyle than slave day after day at a job I hate, even though it may pay big bucks. Now keep in mind this is how I feel, and I can already sense that Hal9000 has a much different mindset.

Even if you don't have your "dream job" you can still enjoy it, lead a happy life, and take pride in your work. I probably should have altered how I mentioned that last segement on about people not liking there jobs. I should have said : For those of you who dislike your job and complain about how much you hate it, then you should either quit and do what you want to do, or take a look back and see what it was that steered you off the path of your dream job (wether it was drugs, drinking, getting hurt) and realize that it is truely your fault you got yourself into that possition where you are unhappy and hate your job. Then, accept it and at least try to enjoy what you are doing, now matter what the hours are and what the pay is. A poor attitude toward you job will lead to poorer products being produced by the company you work for, and you could get fired for the lack or pride you have for your job and the impact that lack of pride has on the work you accomplish.

Now this probably seems like it is driffting off topic, but I want to get my point across to cypher like I did in my first post that you picked your path, your decisions (weather good or bad) lead you to where are you today, and if you really hate your job don't go on complaining about how much you hate it. Look for the job you want to do, get the proper training, and be happy.


Money doesn't my happyness. And happyness doesn't come from material possesions.

I consider you read "Maria Tepache" and "Neighbor Rosicky" to short stories we read this year in english class which were exactly about leading a happy life and that money isn't everything.

[Floppyman]

After reading the majority of this thread I must say that this has been a very insightful discussion so far, one that is very applicable particularly at this time of the year.

I must say that age 22 I've worked a couple jobs in my life already and neither of them I liked very much. In High School I worked at a Hardee's for a good three years flipping burgers. I used to get up at 4AM on Saturdays to be at work by five and get the place ready to open by six. Now you tell me, how many High School students would be willing to do that? Or in general, how many would like a job like that? I guess you could say I did work there for the money, not necessarily for the enjoyment. Was this a bad choice on my part? Not really. Throughout those three years I learned good work ethic and more importantly the value of money. Heck a lot of those flipped hamburgers also financed a good share computer builds, believe it or not. The same goes for the job I have doing steel fabrication in the factory I work at during breaks. Again, the work is extremely boring (I have nothing against manually labor), but it sure teaches you the value of money and hard work.

Plus there is one added incentive of having "crap" jobs early in life: Working both these jobs has encouraged me to stay in school as long as possible and work hard towards my dream job. I guess I see this as the positive side of working at a job you don't enjoy. Unfortunately, for a lot of people that realization comes at a later point in life.

As for debt, I agree with mbossman2 and co. on their comments thus far. I've always held a debt-free policy unless it is for my education -- and that's the only debt I have right now. I've heard too many horror stories of people being in debt beyond what they can handle. I for one never want to end up like that. I know we live in a consumer culture that encourages us to spend, spend, spend, but as Ryan already pointed out, money certainly does not buy happiness, and neither do material posessions. I'm firm believer of that and have many, many real life examples to back up my claim.

On the contrary, I also think there is nothing wrong with becoming wealthy. Yet there is a clear distinction between being excessively rich and flaunting your possesions and just being wealthy. I feel there's is nothing wrong with working hard a job you enjoy, living below your means if possible, and then slowly accumulating wealth that you can then share with others (children, grandchildren) one day.

If I had to sum all this up, I'd say I'm a firm believer in hard work, being as debt-free as possible, and saving for the future.

[HAL9000]

Originally Posted by ryan124712 It has nothing to do with the job itself (here I mean wether it is a good or crap job), it has to do with how happy you are while doing it, or how much you enjoy it. I could get a job at Burger king and find out I really really love it and hate all other jobs out there, so why shouldn't I work at burger king my entire life flipping burgers - at least I am happy doing that for a living. Now don't let that confuse me with living a high lifestyle, driving around in fancy cars and displaying my wealth buy purchasing beachside mansions. Which are two different things; material possesions which you use to compare yourself to others and the job which you have. To me I would rather enjoy my job and live an okay lifestyle than slave day after day at a job I hate, even though it may pay big bucks. Now keep in mind this is how I feel, and I can already sense that Hal9000 has a much different mindset.

Nope!!.. Now you hit the nail on the head (note the bolded quote)... money is nice.. but it doesn't buy happiness..... but there can be a balance too.... I'm currently loving my job... now it's not the greatest pay in the world.. but at $40K+ per year.... it's not all that bad either.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by Floppyman On the contrary, I also think there is nothing wrong with becoming wealthy. Yet there is a clear distinction between being excessively rich and flaunting your possesions and just being wealthy. I feel there's is nothing wrong with working hard a job you enjoy, living below your means if possible, and then slowly accumulating wealth that you can then share with others (children, grandchildren) one day.

you may want to read a book called The Millionaire Next Door. it is an excellent look at the american millionaire...you might be very surprised about the makeup of the "average" millionaire...

[RevCLB]

Knowledge is power,especially if you know how to properly apply it. By all means, if you can, get an education. A lot of learned facts is not a true education. You need wisdom & discernment to go along with facts. I have known people with more degrees than a rectal thermometer who are disfunctional.

Debt is a bane of mankind if we go into it just to get what we want Now. Learn, find your niche in life, & go with it. You can always upgrade!! You younger folks on these forums give me a lot of hope for this old world. RevCLB

[Floppyman]

Originally Posted by mbossman2 you may want to read a book called The Millionaire Next Door. it is an excellent look at the american millionaire...you might be very surprised about the makeup of the "average" millionaire...

Hey mbossman2,

I actually just recently heard of that book and that's where I saw that info. Have you read this:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo...o&dist=myyahoo

[bailey]

I once read that a true american drove his bank finaced car down the federal funded highway with credit card gas and it went on with some other things.

I have always enjoyed the jobs I have had, and the ones I did not like I would very quickly quit. I was never one to use credit cards, but I have had some and it sure makes it easy to spend that way,
I have sence lived with out CC's or even going into debt for anything, if I don't have the cash, I don't buy but save the cash till I can buy.
there has been many years in my life that all I made was 250 a week to live on, and did so very nicely, and then there were many years that I made 100k a year, and still lived very nicely, now I am on SS and still live very nicely, and still have no debt, its sure a good feeling to know that I don't have to get up and got to work every day, and not to worry about how I was going to pay the bills every month, cause I aint got any.
unless you call $150 a month total living expenses anything.

[cypher1919]

Thanks for all the input guys, but I really wrote this thread kinda tongue-in-cheek.I had no idea it would have gotten so serious. I had just realized I had spent a better part of my younger twenties worrying about money. Worrying about getting it, spending it, and so on. My job isn't so bad, I just hate the small pay that comes with it...and the dealing with the select few crybabies(my earlier thread on law enforcement explains that) on a day to day basis. I recently just started my old job back as a dispatcher after getting a better job and losing it due to FEMA(thats a whole other can of worms). I loved my other job. Better pay, better hours, decent boss, and it opened alot of doors for me and my real estate career. Now i'm back in the same job, same place and I feel I am spinning my wheels. I don't make the money I would like to. My sig says it all. Noone and I mean Noone gives a crap about how much college you have around here,all that matters is your name. I have been passed up before for certain positions of employment in this field by people with less time in the business, less or no education at all, and brown nosers. I've pretty much been in law enforcement since 1997(not including my military time) and as of now my supervisors been in the business for about 2 years off and on. Thats the biggest thing I hate about this job. The second is the pay. Which I would get better pay if I could get ahead in this field. Anywhoo, Thanks again for the posts and I hope some of this info on credit helps some of the younger members who haven't obtained credit yet. Theres been some really good advice on this thread.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by Floppyman Hey mbossman2, I actually just recently heard of that book and that's where I saw that info. Have you read this: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo...o&dist=myyahoo

I have read the Millionaire's Mind...also a good book...

Please note a common thread from many of these books:

Book #2 - index funds
Book #4 - index funds
Book #7 - Index funds

see the commonality?

Another very telling comment, echoing Hal's statment, is put away 10% of your income and live on the rest and you'll be fine...

Cypher - money, while it is not the key to happiness, is the key that opens up the doors to many different options...you are right, getting a good early start on finances can be the lynchpin to obtaining wealth, compunding interest is your best friend and can be the single most powerful tool in you financial arsenal..

Originally Posted by HAL9000 I HIGHLY disagree here... see below I don't think those relate to liking your job or not.... I know several people with really crap jobs.. but for some reason.. they love it.... I also know several weed smoking dropouts that have done quite well and like their work as well.

It is fortunate that they have done well and prospered BUT they are, statistically, the exception, not the rule...earning potentials for high school drop outs, high school graduates, college attendees, college graduates (etc) are, on the average, vastly different. sticking with school and avoiding (continuing use of) drugs will have definite and dramatic impact on your financial and professional future...

Everything hinges on the choices that we make and some of the most critical, long term impactful, decisions are made (and acted upon) at the earliest times of your life, unfortunately at times in life where people are ill prepared (emotionally and maturity wise) to make the best choice, especially when presented with options that provide a far more immediate and tangible results...it is the rare young person who can see the beyond the horizon and see their long term goals, follow that path and be able to identify the pitfalls along that path and subsequently avoid those traps...we should laud folks like ryan who have the vision to see instead of pulling out folks who, metaphorically drew to an inside straight while only holding a 2 and a 6...

[Al Pollock]

Originally Posted by Floppyman
On the contrary, I also think there is nothing wrong with becoming wealthy. Yet there is a clear distinction between being excessively rich and flaunting your possesions and just being wealthy. I feel there's is nothing wrong with working hard a job you enjoy, living below your means if possible, and then slowly accumulating wealth that you can then share with others (children, grandchildren) one day.

[Al Pollock]

Originally Posted by floppy man f I had to sum all this up, I'd say I'm a firm believer in hard work, being as debt-free as possible, and saving for the future.

I am 66 and debt free

[Al Pollock]

[QUOTE=Originally Posted by Floppyman
On the contrary, I also think there is nothing wrong with becoming wealthy. Yet there is a clear distinction between being excessively rich and flaunting your possesions and just being wealthy. I feel there's is nothing wrong with working hard a job you enjoy, living below your means if possible, and then slowly accumulating wealth that you can then share with others (children, grandchildren) one day.[/QUOTE]

only way to go if you don't want to carry the burden of debt.....

[HAL9000]

Originally Posted by mbossman2 It is fortunate that they have done well and prospered BUT they are, statistically, the exception, not the rule...earning potentials for high school drop outs, high school graduates, college attendees, college graduates (etc) are, on the average, vastly different. sticking with school and avoiding (continuing use of) drugs will have definite and dramatic impact on your financial and professional future...

You're missing my point here... I really don't think there is any reasonable correllation to being a dropout/druggie and being happy. If that were the case, then I should have been happy with my previous job... pay sucked, but that isn't what made me unhappy... my current job is technically everything I hate.. especially phones... gawd... cordless phone sitting next to me at home and when it rings... I shout out is anyone gonna get that... cuz I'm NOT.... but I LIKE my job... why? Not because of the pay.. because of the environment... the people I work with are awesome.. the company I work for is has been a top 100 in Canada for the past 4 years.

Originally Posted by mbossman2 Another very telling comment, echoing Hal's statment, is put away 10% of your income and live on the rest and you'll be fine...

We're not at 10% yet.. probably more about 6%.. but even that has made a major impact... hope to get that increased up to 10%+ over the next year or so.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by HAL9000 You're missing my point here... I really don't think there is any reasonable correllation to being a dropout/druggie and being happy. If that were the case, then I should have been happy with my previous job... pay sucked, but that isn't what made me unhappy... my current job is technically everything I hate.. especially phones... gawd... cordless phone sitting next to me at home and when it rings... I shout out is anyone gonna get that... cuz I'm NOT.... but I LIKE my job... why? Not because of the pay.. because of the environment... the people I work with are awesome.. the company I work for is has been a top 100 in Canada for the past 4 years.

I have spent almost 20 years grafted to a phone and I REFUSE to answer the phone at home....

I don't think that you can correllate to happiness and I misunderstood your stance...

(On the phone thing: if you wear a headset, be careful, they can and do affect your hearing...keep the volume as low as possible)

[HAL9000]

Volume on ours even full blast is not very loud... seems just about right... if anything, I have a hard time hearing some people.. but the people that are loud and clear, I'm quick to turn it down.

And heck... I refused to answer the phone even before I started this job LOL.

[Floppyman]

You know I actually have to answers phones too as part of Technology Helpdesk at school, and man do I hate it. I always try to be the one doing the on-site work instead.

Back to the topic of this thread, I think some great advice has been given here. First off the saving 10 percent of your income has been preached to me ever since I was a young teenager and it's a great rule to follow.

And I couldn't agree more with you on this one, mbossman2:

Everything hinges on the choices that we make and some of the most critical, long term impactful, decisions are made (and acted upon) at the earliest times of your life, unfortunately at times in life where people are ill prepared (emotionally and maturity wise) to make the best choice, especially when presented with options that provide a far more immediate and tangible results...it is the rare young person who can see the beyond the horizon and see their long term goals, follow that path and be able to identify the pitfalls along that path and subsequently avoid those traps...we should laud folks like ryan who have the vision to see instead of pulling out folks who, metaphorically drew to an inside straight while only holding a 2 and a 6... Today 04:56 AM

My fellow friends often look at me a little funny when I start talking about investment options and retirement plans, but I feel all these are just avenues to help me realize my long term goals (as you stated above). I've always held the conviction that the sooner I learn about these things and start taking advantage of them the better off I'll be in the long run. I think any young person out there can make smart financial decisions early in life, but you are certainly right in that it requires a certain level of maturity to see beyond the "instant gratification" culture we live in and think ahead.