Airline Travel

[glfredrick]

I'd presume that one would actually have to work at hitting another plane while flying -- and it would be difficult work, akin to making jello stay nailed to a wall, perhaps.

Two moving objects -- traveling at 400-600 mph -- two (well four) persons steering, each trying to avoid the other. Touch to make them hit intentionally -- accidentally perhaps the chance is greater, sort of like running in front of an already moving bullet or something.

All in all, however, I'd think that being at 20,000 + feet is about the safest place on earth to be. Above lightening, most wind, clouds, rockets, hand-fired weapons, etc. It is only that couple of minutes when you are closest to the ground that is particularly dangerous, and that is also the most heavily watched and directed time.

[edfair]

Well, nobody steering. And it happens often enough to keep the ATC people in stress. They have alarms that sound off when the minimums are violated. Then they try to figure out how it happened and what they can do to not let it happen again.

[SARGE]

I made it back from Cozumel on Saturday by my lonesome, and will never fly again. A straight shot from Cozumel going north to Dallas, yet my own compass put us going west and wnw. Serious storms over Texas that day. The short time I could see anything besides clouds that literally enveloped the wings, the pilot was obviously trying to avoid a serious wall to our right (east). Unfortunately some surge caught the right wing and tilted us at a 45 degree angle. 2 barf bags later, another anxiety pill to compliment the first, an argument with the stewardess to return to my seat with seatbelt despite having gastro problems as a result, negates any further flying. As for flying being safer than a car, I have a measure of control behind the wheel and can always pull over if a problem arises. Although a fighter jet and pilot are built to recover from rollovers, ain't no commercial jet can withstand the recovery from such. Falling from 40k feet is not something I will ever worry about contending with again. There are other issues regarding my flying but the above should suffice.

[Lespaul20]

Sorry to hear of such a bad experience. Sound like that might have even scared me.

[HAL9000]

Sarge.. look at it this way... you have professionals with many hours of flight training and simulations and lots of hours behind their belts, written exams and medicals to pass... you might be able to have some control of yourself in the car... but just think of how relatively easy it is to get a drivers license and once you have it, there are no medicals, no upgrade training, no simulators, heck, how many out there without a license, how many drunk, how many stoned, how many just so damn incompetent that you wonder how they remember to breathe let alone manipulate a ton or so of vehicle through traffic... you have no control over those variables... the damage to your bug is proof of that.

[edfair]

Some days are like that, Sarge.

My week of travel ended with a ticketing issue. SO decided to stay in CA until Monday. Went to cheaptickets, told that they couldn't change the ticket, it would take Airtran to do it. Airtran bumped us back to cheap. Cheap told us what Airtran needed to do. Airtran did it. Cheap still couldn't change it, saying Airtran needed to do it. Finally got it sorted out at LAX as I was leaving, but wasted in excess of 10 hours of time on hold over 2 days. Flight was file but they went around the DFW weather.

[Litespeed]

A good read regarding this subject is Airframe by Michael Crichton

[pc master]

I am a huge fan of commercial aviation. There is a reason why commercial jets arent built to take rollovers. Due to the sheer size and weight of them, the wings would sheer off while rolling over.

My ultimate career is actually to be a commercial pilot. It is only when you take the time to setp back and look at how they work, that you realise how safe they really are. As HAL9000 has already said it is very easy to get a drivers liscence. Once you have it there are no proficiency tests. A commercial pilot with BA(example) has to take a proficiency exam every 6 months that simulates various disasters. If they dont pass, their liscence is revoked.


Also in every commercial aircraft they are various warnings that will sound if the plane is too low, too close to another plane(TCAS), engine problems. The list goes on.

[David M]

Actually commercial jets can safely rollover. Watch this video of a Boeing 707 being rolled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVAYojHLbh4

Sarge, did your landings feel like any of these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sldca...elated&search=

[pc master]

DNever knew that a 707 could rollover. Larger aircraft cant though(747, A380).

[HAL9000]

You would be surprized what can roll over. I was watching a show called Mayday and it involved a fully loaded cargo jet (don't remember which, but larger than a 707) where a pilot just going for the ride tried to take over the plane and while two crew members struggled with him, the pilot actually rolled the plane around to make it more difficult for the guy to fight.

In another episode, it had to do with a failed elevator.. now this was totally unintentional, but the pilots flew upside down for several minutes while trying to maintain control before the plane finally crashed into the ocean.

Given enough altitude to do it safely, I don't see why ANY aircraft can't roll over.

[Lespaul20]

I don't know if they rolled completely but it sounds like it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_006

The plane in fact had rolled over and was in a steep dive, losing 10,000 feet in twenty seconds and reaching abnormally high speeds. The crew and passengers experienced enormous forces, reaching as much as five g.

It did suffer some damage though.

[David M]

The only thing the airframe "knows" is the G forces and air speed it is "feeling"....if that makes sense. If you don't pull negative G's or too many positive G's or exceed the design speed then why wouldn't it be able to do a roll?

That famous photograph with the plane inverted pretty much illustrates the survivability of a roll with at least this commercial passenger jet...does it not?

[hitchface]

Originally Posted by Floppyman I'm also a big fan of flying -- even hope to start working on my private pilot's license in a year or so. I can deal with car trips, but if it's going to be longer than 3hrs I'd much rather fly. Having just come back from an 1100 mile roadtrip, once thing became clear to me -- there are way too many inconsiderate drivers on the road. No thanks, I'll fly instead.

I guess I'm a little late to the party on my favorite topic, but hey anyways!

Floppyman, you'll find that there are a number of inconsiderate pilots too. The good news is that there are far less of them. I had a situation just last winter where my wife and I went up in a C-172 to do a little sight seeing. We were headed back to the field, where a pre-private student was doing circuits to brush up on his procedures in prep for the next lesson, and we heard another 172 pilot (we think from the Calgary area, but not sure) enter the circuit the OPPOSITE direction. Now, forget the fact that he was planning on a downwind landing, he was on a direct, head on, same altitude collision course with the aforementioned student! The runway is only 3000' long, so a circuit there doesn't take long, even in a bug smasher like a 70s model 172. I immediately got on the horn and advised the pilot that there was another plane in the circuit (who was making clear radio calls the whole way) going the opposite direction. He didn't answer the 1st call, so I repeated myself. He finally caught on, exited and re-entered the circuit the proper way. We tried to follow his position reports so we could find him as we were coming in to land.

EDIT: I tried a diagram here, but it didn't work out too well...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_pattern

We were on downwind when he called base. Didn't see him there. We called base once we got there, assuming that he HAD to be on final by that point. Still wasn't there. We asked him where he was before we turned final...he reported DOWNWIND. Behind us. We caught sight of him as we turned final, and he was WAY close. We simply expedited our approach while he stated that he would back off for spacing. We ended up landing and rolling till we got to the closest taxiway and cleared the active pavement. Soon as we did, that guy came roaring by our tail on his overshoot. He tried again to land, this time almost on top of the student, and then he cleared the zone back west.

Sorry, I know that was long, but it goes to show that there are some bloody dumb decisions made from time to time. For instance, my wife and I could have avoided the situation by overshooting and staying airborne while he sorted himself out. I know that this didn't help those who don't like flying, but for every poor decision there are countless good ones.

FMan, you still excited about getting your private?

[glc]

Hitch - sounds like too many people these days - proper procedures are only for tests and check rides, the rest of the time I'll do whatever I damn well please and who cares about anyone else...........heaven forbid I'm delayed 30 seconds!

[hitchface]

No joke. This guy sounded pretty tired, which would explain quite a bit, including impatience and poor judgment.

Either way, it really is comforting to read and hear transcripts/recordings of pilot judgment. Most of the time, the right decisions are made. Every now and then you get that bad egg, and you can decipher what went wrong and when. I'm no commercial pilot (yet, anyways), and those guys have far more skill and decision making skills than I do. Makes me feel safer in the air. Like they say, its the amateurs you gotta worry about, right?