Airline Travel

[SARGE]

Have been on 6 airline trips in past 4 years and still can't stand it. Of course many moons ago I was aloft so it's not like it's my first go-around. I still get the hoochies waiting and during the flight, especially the take-off and landing. Put the plane in solid clouds for an hour and watch me come unglued. Docs say "no sweat, they got radar". There is something very unnatural about travelling in a vacuumed piece of metal at 40k feet going 600 mph while dodging an already crowded airspace. No room for an "oops" in that atmosphere. Since I seem to always get a window seat, I stare alot. I see many other planes zooming past going the opposite direction and when pointing that out they say, "don't look out the window". Geez. Am wondering if others have this feeling of dread each time they get on a plane, or if you've gotten so used to a sense of security it doesn't matter.

[juppy]

I've never even been on a plane myself, Sarge, but if I have any say in the matter, I'll be happy to keep it that way. I've always heard air travel is actually safer than car travel is, but that doesn't make me feel much better about doing it. My brother flew once about 10 years ago and he loved it. Said it was really smooth and a great way to travel. Then again, this is the guy that used to stand up on the seat of his motorcycle and act like he was surfing while riding it down the street, so I don't know that his brain actually takes into account the possibility of wrecking or being hurt in an accident.

[Panama Red]

Not dread for me but definitely some apprehension. Had an engine burst into flames on a C7A Caribou right after takeoff many years ago. The pilots did a great job turning around as we were headed out over the harbor and managed to put her back on the landing mat. Ever since then I get antsy once I'm strapped in. Takeoffs and landings are the worse but we had a flight last year to Puerto Rico that was the scariest. Flew out of Newark, NJ and had to fly thru a huge thunderstorm. Our seats were at the very back and I felt like I was on a carnival ride for about an hour. I've never heard metal "groan" like that. All the flight attendants were strapped in and all the seats were full. No one made a sound until we were out of that storm. Those kind of trips aren't fun but statistically you're still better off than in a car.

[RJ]

I flew alot and I really love it. I don't feel any dread when boarding a plane, or when I actually see other planes when I look out the window. It's a very safe way of traveling.
Every flight is controlled by air traffic controllers on the ground, they make sure planes don't come too close to each other. And if they do, the pilots see the plane on their screens on the flight deck and get evasive commands to avoid a hit.

Before the glass cockpit, this was not possible, the pilots couldn't see other planes (as there were no monitors on the flight deck), only the ATC could.
But nowadays, the pilots are more aware of where other traffic is, which increases safety for the flight.

Even small airplanes (like piston-engine driven Pipers or Cessnas) use transponders, so they also appear on both ATC radar screens and the jet pilot's navigation display on the flight deck.

So don't worry, you can feel safe on a plane and enjoy the flight

RJ

[Jester]

nothing to enjoy just sitting there with no control...i am in the airforce and i hate flying...

[mbossman2]

sarge,

1) if you don't like window seats tell the lady at the desk and see if she can switch you (9 times out of 10 they can). first row and last couple of rows minimize that watching planes go by.

2) distraction - get something to distract you and take your mind off what you are doing: iPod, portable DVD player, books, magazines, laptop, etc. It helps make the time pass so much faster. I prefer things with headphones as it drowns out the airplane noise.

3) flight time: if you can sleep while sitting, take late night/overnight flights and buy a neck pillow (they actually do work) and sleep your way thru the flight (especially good when going west to east)

4) when all else fails: a little chemical assistance might be in order. ask your doctor for something light. or, of course, you can self medicate: if prefer beer, but wine, bourbon, whiskey and vodka (all mixed with something - don't want to be drunk) all work well.

I am not a big fan of flying: it wipes me out BUT as i travel 2x a month or so for work, me and my frequent flyer card are good buddies. I prefer #4 on the return leg and #2 on the outbound leg (if you do the movie thing, go PG-13 or less, you never know what little eyes may be behind or next to you)

[glfredrick]

I like flying, and am one of the weird ones that wishes I had my pilot's license.

About hitting another plane in the air? Not very likely, made-for-television-movies aside... In all the crashes reported, seldom is one due to hitting another plane in the air. Most are equipment malfunctions during takeoff, or in the case of the DC10, engines that tend to fall off in mid-flight. They sort of have that issue figured out, however.

What I like best is stepping onto a plane here and stepping off there in a matter of hours, versus days of travel time.

Window seats? I love them. I like to see.

What I dislike most is the lack of non-stop flights these days, due to traffic routing, etc. Way too much time spent in running from end to end in some airport somewhere in a city that is rarely your destination anyway.

[RevCLB]

I like to sit just far enough back of the wing so I can watch the flaps adjust.

[glc]

I was a Navy aircrewman for over 20 years, I have over 5000 flight hours in the P-3 Orion. I love flying, but I hate commercial airliners. There is absolutely no fear factor, I totally trust airplanes. It's a comfort issue - I hate being cooped up in an uncomfortable seat in a cattle car. I'm used to being able to get up and do what I want during flight and having room to walk around. To put it in perspective, in a P-3 you only share space with 4 to 20 people depending on the mission. A P-3 is a converted Electra turboprop which in airline configuration has over 100 seats.

[kram 2.0]

To tell you honestly, I love flying commercial rather than driving for a prolonged period of time. I simply cannot stand the boredom of driving more than a few hours from point A to point B when, quite frankly, I could hop onto a B737 that gets me to point B much faster. There is no/very little room for error, as you pointed out - but keep in mind that the amount of experience and training that the commercial pilots have. Certainly they are human and can make mistakes - but to me, the risks are far far less.

kram

[HAL9000]

I totally love flying, you can't beat it for long distances.

[mbossman2]

for anything less than 1-2 hours flying time, I prefer to drive. It eats up just as much time as flying (to the airport, standing in line in security, on the plane, off the plane, out the door, to the cab stand or car rental joint and then to the hotel/office) anything beyond that the plane makes sense.

[doubledragon5]

For yrs I refused to fly, I use to drive where ever I went.. Back in 04 was the first time I flew and loved it.. Take off was kind of iffy, but when we got to cruising altitude 40,000ft I felt like all my problems were gone, cause they were down on the ground and I was up in the air.. We had one flight from OK to Conn that was not so good.. The air plane while making its final approach had to quickly head back up in the sky and everyone was holding tight on to their seats.. The pilot never said why happened and we never asked...

[Lespaul20]

I flew for the first time last summer on my trip to Greece and loved almost every minute of it.
Unlike a lot of people here the takeoff/landing where they most exciting part. I got a little nervous on a few; particularity landing in Athens during a side trip. I guess the winds were gusting around 30-40 knot on the ground, it was bumpy and we came in really fast.
I know how it's feels to spend 9 hours in a tiny cramped seats, hated that. Lucky on the way back our airline overbooked and we got bumped to business class.

I've been in awe of planes ever since.

[doubledragon5]

The closest I've gotten to first class was one row behind the curtian..

[Force Flow]

I haven't flown since before 9/11...I'm curious as to how much airport security has actually changed since then and now several years after the fact (and I don't mean all the sensationalist horror stories...I've heard and read about my fair share).

[edfair]

I finished the third in 4 days today into LAX fron San Jose. Boy have we had some baggage screwups this time and I won't describe the transfer outbound in LAX between terminals with 45 minutes from recovering bags from airtran to boarding american eagle on a far out terminal reached by bus.
The P3 should have been like luxury GLD. You should have been in sooner and enjoyed the luxury on the P-2V or even the PBY. But that tells you when I was in.

Generally no issue with the clouds anymore, Sarge. You crank the figures in and the plane goes there. At the L1011 timeframe they were qualified for zero-zero totally automated. The pilots monitored the system.

[glc]

I've got 3 years in the P-2. I still could get up and walk around the afterstation. The view in the bow was something else too. Against regs, but they let me make a takeoff and a landing up there once.

[doubledragon5]

The last time my wife flew with my oldest daughter, she went through a double security check, because she had on a baggy sweatshirt...

[edfair]

Came out of Salt Lake City several years ago. Made some remark about the Neutron analysis for explosives test and got one shakedown from TSA. Had plastic pipe with endcaps on from wife's CDC presentation in the bag and got to explain it to TSA in detail, then was selected for a third, really close exam, at the gate. That was another experience I won't try to repeat.

Put a Gateway power book in checked baggage, along with the power pack, a modem, modem power pack, and cables and got the luggage checked both ways. Wish the TSA guys would learn to repack. What a mess.

[David M]

Love flying, hate the big security hassles on the ground and being trapped in a tiny space next to a stranger for hours. Always thought they should put urinal type partitions between the seats so you get SOME semblance of privacy...yeah I know its impractical...just an idea.

By the way, the commercial jets don't have radar onboard for avoiding collision. That's the job of ATC.

[RJ]

By the way, the commercial jets don't have radar onboard for avoiding collision.

They do. The so-called TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system) displays every aircraft equipped with a transponder (that's all airliners, all IFR flights, and many VFR flights) within a certain range on the display on the flight deck.
The pilots can see other aircrafts. And if they come close, the pilots first get Traffic Advisory (to get alerted that an aircraft is coming close), and if they come too close, they get a Resolution advisory (one aircraft has to climb, the other one has to descend).

That's the job of ATC.

It is. But if ATC fails, you got TCAS to avoid the crash. A TCAS RA must be followed, it overrides ATC. Once you get a "clear of conflict" information from the TCAS system you go back to your original route and inform ATC.

Here some info about TCAS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic...oidance_System
http://www.eu-flysafe.org/Project/Av...t-systems.html
http://www.skyaid.org/Skycar/TCAS.htm

RJ

[Disgrace]

Flying by plane is a lot safer than driving. But you have to look at it like nuclear energy. (Not going political here, folks.)

Nuclear energy is proven to be extremely safe but it's the rare disasters you hear on the news which make everybody panic. It's the same with air travel. There's FAR less accidents but when there are any, they're a lot more dramatic and are all over the news and people get the wrong idea. Personally, apart from being like a chicken in a hen house, I don't mind flying too much but i'm no fan of taking off.

[David M]

Originally Posted by RJ They do. The so-called TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system) displays every aircraft equipped with a transponder (that's all airliners, all IFR flights, and many VFR flights) within a certain range on the display on the flight deck. The pilots can see other aircrafts. And if they come close, the pilots first get Traffic Advisory (to get alerted that an aircraft is coming close), and if they come too close, they get a Resolution advisory (one aircraft has to climb, the other one has to descend). It is. But if ATC fails, you got TCAS to avoid the crash. A TCAS RA must be followed, it overrides ATC. Once you get a "clear of conflict" information from the TCAS system you go back to your original route and inform ATC. Here some info about TCAS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic...oidance_System http://www.eu-flysafe.org/Project/Av...t-systems.html http://www.skyaid.org/Skycar/TCAS.htm RJ

I said radar.. A transponder is not a radar.

This is an aircraft radar: http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-radar-02.htm

This is a transponder: http://www.avionix.com/xpndr.html

If you can show me a navigation/anti-collision (not a weather doppler radar) under the nose cone of a standard commercial passenger aircraft then I stand corrected.

[glc]

Well, it sort of is, transponders do use radar beams to interrogate and send returns. If you are saying that the TCAS information is not displayed on the cockpit weather radar display, you are correct. It has its own display or can be integrated into the navigation display.

[David M]

Originally Posted by glc Well, it sort of is, transponders do use radar beams to interrogate and send returns. If you are saying that the TCAS information is not displayed on the cockpit weather radar display, you are correct. It has its own display or can be integrated into the navigation display.

In my experience a radar is a very directional beam that sweeps a given area. Radio waves at marine radar frequencies are generally either 10cm or 3cm and are reflected off objects and return to the antenna...painting a picture on a screen that shows whats ahead and to the side...as far as 360 degrees for ships radar. Military aircraft have a smaller arc phased array radar which points mostly ahead and to the side some for obvious aerodynamic reasons unless it is an AWACS type aircraft.

A transceiver is much simpler in that it does not need to operate at radar frequencies and all it does is send out signal with position, altitude, speed etc data which stimulates a transceiver to send a signal back with its relevant data.....this is very different technology and by definition of a radar....is not a radar.

Transceivers are on commercial vessels and are used for vessels identification and collision avoidance as well...called AIS (equivalent to IFF on military jets)

On military jets, the radar is not called the transceivers and the transceivers are not called the radar. They are two different things.

What you speak of is a type of CAS or Collison Avoidance System and so is RADAR a type of CAS...but they are not the same thing.

Sarge asked about radar on a commercial aircraft and the answer is no....there is no radar as defined by what a radar is.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transceiver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat...ication_System

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/e3awacs/

[Floppyman]

I'm also a big fan of flying -- even hope to start working on my private pilot's license in a year or so. I can deal with car trips, but if it's going to be longer than 3hrs I'd much rather fly. Having just come back from an 1100 mile roadtrip, once thing became clear to me -- there are way too many inconsiderate drivers on the road. No thanks, I'll fly instead.

[edfair]

If you can think of a boat as a hole in the water into which you throw money it might not come as too much of a shock to think of an airplane as a hole in the sky into which you will throw even more money.

Nothing like having the maintenance chief tell you that there are some little things wrong with your airplane that will cost 39,000 to fix. Fortunately he signed off on a lot of work I did, instaed of having his crew do it. This was on a Grumman Tiger worth maybe 25,000 to start with.

[glfredrick]

Originally Posted by Force Flow I haven't flown since before 9/11...I'm curious as to how much airport security has actually changed since then and now several years after the fact (and I don't mean all the sensationalist horror stories...I've heard and read about my fair share).

It isn't all that much different, they just pretend to be more thorough.

Basic differences are:

Your family can no longer pass the security checkpoint to see you off at the terminal -- only ticket holders get that far.

You pass through the metal detector, and stuff all your baggage and pocket goods through the x-ray.

You may be required to turn on your computer.

You will have to remove your shoes.

You may be subject to further inspections -- pat downs, check with a wand, checked with an explosive sniffer (and pray that you haven't worn those clothes while doing some informal target shooting or something...), and if they have some further suspicions, you may be escorted to another room for further checks, but it seldom gets that far.

What is scary to me is that they single out people like me for further checks on almost every flight, yet I see "internationals" of a particular persuasion pass right through with nary a glance. I'm a middle-aged white dude that is generally packing a Bible -- a terrorist, I'm sure -- I must fit some profile somewhere, but as far as I know, no one fitting my description has EVER caused a problem with a plane anywhere, especially when traveling with my cute little wife... Yet, I seem to get the special treatment.

[RJ]

I said radar.. A transponder is not a radar.

It's not a traditional radar that just sends out signals and processes the reflected signals, but there is a type of radar that works with transponders, namely the Secondary Survelliance Radar.
The traditional radar you're talking about is the Primary Radar.

Secondary (transponder-based) radar is state-of-the-art in aviation and is based on the transponder. ATC's radar screens all work with transponders, that's how information about altitude etc. is transmitted as well. If somebody turned off this transponder, he would not show on the ATC radar screen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seconda...eillance_radar

It's pretty much a question of definition. But whether you call it radar or not, the important thing is that the pilots do have a device which shows other aircrafts in the vicinity, their altitudes, and if they climb or descend, so they actually see the traffic on the navigation display, have a good situational awareness, and in case of a dangerous proximity they'll be warned and given advisory on how to avoid a collision.

RJ