So...Which is It?

[SARGE]

I am bemused by some of this global warming stuff, but will isolate it to rainfall. For the past 2 years we in Texas have been told we were in a "drought" because of global warming. For the past many months all we've had is rain, rain, rain, and most of us are near a foot above normal rainfall and breaking records along with mass floodings, and lakes that were thirsty the past few years (some up to 16 feet low) are now above normal and then some. Now we're hearing that all this rain is because of global warming. I can't see how that works. I still don't believe that mankind is above nature nor can control the overall scheme of things, although we'd like to believe that we actually have that kind of power to change the climate. I do believe however that as humans we have our beliefs in a certain thing(s), then look for evidence to support them, and discount those things that contradict them, rather than looking at the cold hard facts.

[juppy]

I agree, Sarge. We're in the exact same situation here in Oklahoma. Couldn't pray hard enough for rain last year and now we're flooding everywhere. 15 straight days of rainfall now....a new record for straight days of rain without a break in between. I've personally never believed in the whole global warming stuff. The Earth goes through periods of warming and cooling, and if you look back through history, we're really not that far out of range for what can be considered the "normal" trend. I *DO* wish it would quit raining for a few days though.....my lawn needs mowed BADLY!!

[XenaWP]

I think sometimes people use short term conditions to advance their particular "agenda" ... thus blaming a year or two of heavy or light rainfall on "global warming."

But after watching Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth," I am no longer at all in doubt that global warming is real, it's our fault, and we need to act decisively and quickly to save the planet.

And I'm not a liberal nor a Democrat. And I'd hate to see the thread go political ....

[Markoman01027]

Originally Posted by juppy I agree, Sarge. We're in the exact same situation here in Oklahoma. Couldn't pray hard enough for rain last year and now we're flooding everywhere. 15 straight days of rainfall now....a new record for straight days of rain without a break in between. I've personally never believed in the whole global warming stuff. The Earth goes through periods of warming and cooling, and if you look back through history, we're really not that far out of range for what can be considered the "normal" trend. I *DO* wish it would quit raining for a few days though.....my lawn needs mowed BADLY!!

I do not either. There is scientific evidence that concludes that CO2 levels were high before the industrial age. Thus, it suggests that the CO2 levels are just a cycle mechanism of the planet, and not really caused by man.

[edfair]

And one cool siummer from dust in the atmosphere and we'll be hearing about global cooling.

[HAL9000]

Whether true or not, dumping the crap we do into our environment can't be good... get a smoggy day where the sky is a brown haze and tell me that it's good for the environment.

[doubledragon5]

This whether is for the birds. I mean all of this rain, with my current job when it rains I don't work..

[SARGE]

Originally Posted by HAL9000 Whether true or not, dumping the crap we do into our environment can't be good... get a smoggy day where the sky is a brown haze and tell me that it's good for the environment.

I agree. Most of us are willing to do our part. We also want the truth about things from scientists and governments. If the jury is still out on what global warming actually is and its causes, they should say so rather than having 2 camps bickering and pointing fingers - that makes it seem so political, something most of us don't like nor trust.

[HAL9000]

That's just it though... I don't think ANYONE has true proof either way, but rather common sense must prevail. If you lived in your home (your environment) and were a total pig in terms of trash and filth everywhere, harm will eventually come to your health, sometimes the connection can be proven, sometimes not... common sense says this is so on a much larger scale, but it's difficult to prove actual effects.

[SARGE]

Agree again. Gal bud and I recycle plastics, paper, glass and aluminum that the guys pick up twice a month. We don't toss out trash from the car. We use organic stuff around the house for the yard and plants. We eat only organically grown food from Whole Foods, even use organic deodorant and soap. Geez, that is all silly when considered in the overall scheme of things. Could it be that we've been convinced that we really can make a difference? I still say that nature and the planet are much bigger than we are, and we search for ways within ourselves to make us feel good as though we're contributing toward something good. True, pollution from cars and factories should be addressed as they make us ill and have allergies and also hate to see the unsightly skyline. Still, there are forces much, much bigger than we are that can accomodate our weaknesses and still move forward.

[tomster2300]

Originally Posted by HAL9000 That's just it though... I don't think ANYONE has true proof either way

The aliens know.

Oh and the rain means the flood's a comin.

Just kidding.

Seriously though, I had to do a report on Al Gore's book for my Ecology class last semester, and it was really hard to believe when every other page was about him. Always remember that statistics NEVER show the absolute truth. 500 bajillion acres of rainforest are cut down each year? Please. If that were true then right now, at this very moment, we wouldn't have anything to complain about.

[TwoRails]

Mars and other planets are said to be having "global warming" too... And the reason is??

[tomster2300]

Originally Posted by TwoRails Mars and other planets are said to be having "global warming" too... And the reason is??

*Cough* the ALIENS! *cough*...

[XenaWP]

Originally Posted by SARGE Agree again. Gal bud and I recycle plastics, paper, glass and aluminum that the guys pick up twice a month. We don't toss out trash from the car. We use organic stuff around the house for the yard and plants. We eat only organically grown food from Whole Foods, even use organic deodorant and soap. Geez, that is all silly when considered in the overall scheme of things. Could it be that we've been convinced that we really can make a difference? I still say that nature and the planet are much bigger than we are, and we search for ways within ourselves to make us feel good as though we're contributing toward something good. True, pollution from cars and factories should be addressed as they make us ill and have allergies and also hate to see the unsightly skyline. Still, there are forces much, much bigger than we are that can accomodate our weaknesses and still move forward.

I watched the beginning of Gandhi last night. 200 million Indian citizens did not rise up all together at once to bring about the change that brought their nation independence. Just one man did. One man stood up to the powers that be. Another man joined him. Then another.

To me, that is like the things you describe ... trying to live "green." Many people don't bother because they think they alone can't/don't make a difference. That's true enough. But unless each person makes that choice, to live consciously, to not rape the planet through their living habits, then nothing will ever change. Until we as individuals change, nothing will change. If we do, then other changes (like corporate and national policies) will follow.

[Markoman01027]

Originally Posted by HAL9000 Whether true or not, dumping the crap we do into our environment can't be good... get a smoggy day where the sky is a brown haze and tell me that it's good for the environment.

or even Acid Rain

[Strider]

While I agree there is "Global Warming" I don't totally agree with Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" and I think it's a bunch of people hitting the panic button too early in the stage of the game (although it's not a game). I like to see Hydrogen Fuel being developed rather than biofuel that people are pushing for, great now a gallon of milk will be $4.50 a gallon pretty soon (along with other dairy products). I think scientists and politicians are going to have to take a deep breath and think this through before they act to rashly. Just my opinion.

[Force Flow]

Originally Posted by Markoman01027 or even Acid Rain

There were a few historic monuments in my area that needed to be replaced because of the decades of deterioration. They attributed the deterioration to the higher Ph levels in rainfall.

Granted, the monuments were anywhere between 80 and 150 years old (the age of the monuments differed and I don't recall the exact age), but they were it pretty sad shape considering other monuments in other areas faired better under about the same span of time.

[TwoRails]

Originally Posted by tomster2300 *Cough* the ALIENS! *cough*...

Ya...! That's it -- or Hummers are being tested "out there"

Seriously, though:

Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory.

from

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html

Found with a quick Google.

[David M]

The earth warms and cools over time. In the 4.5 billion years this planet has been around it has warmed and cooled thousands of times. We see this in fossil records and the more recent records which come from the core samples of polar ice caps. To assume that the Earth changing temperature is abnormal or bad is completely wrong. It is quite normal for the Earth to change temperature.

I am still looking for an explanation as to why it is bad for man to change the Earths temperature yet it is okay for the Earth to change its temperature without human causes. It can't be the rate of change because there are written records of glaciers expanding a receding within written history. Meaning there has already been global warming and cooling within the relatively short time man has been on this planet...long before there was any industrialization.

Certain groups with an agenda seem to have no interest in stating these facts about global temperature changes. Because natural temperature change runs contrary to their political agenda of controlling human activities through a false theory that temperature change is abnormal.

Sarge, ocean temperature is directly proportional to how much rain is created. The warmer the ocean, the greater the rate of vaporization. You can see this in the tropics in the afternoon when all the warm ocean water that was evaporated into the atmosphere all day begins to cool and condenses into rain...almost every afternoon. Getting rained on in the tropics in the afternoon feels good after a hot day.

[RevCLB]

I read somewhere that observation of sunspot activity brings some scientist to speculate that by 2030 there will be global cooling.

[HAL9000]

Originally Posted by RevCLB I read somewhere that observation of sunspot activity brings some scientist to speculate that by 2030 there will be global cooling.

... and will that mean that our changes with recycling and such has been working?

[RevCLB]

They must be pretty effective if they can shift sunspots.

[thefultonhow]

The reason there is "hysteria" about global warming is that it could have some serious consequences. NYC, much of Lousiana and Florida, Amsterdam, and practically all of Bangledesh would be underwater if sea levels rise 10 feet. With the rate that the polar ice caps are melting, that could happen sooner rather than later. And yes, there will be global cooling if the polar icecaps melt or if, even worse, a large piece breaks off -- the "ice water" from the ice caps will travel through ocean currents and cool the world. This could result in another ice age pretty quickly, and we'd have a lot of trouble twith agriculture. Overall, there would be massive loss of life due first to the flooding and then to famine.

There's no question that the earth is in the middle of a natural warming cycle. But the consensus in the scientific community is that we're contributing through greenhouse gas emissions -- CO2, methane, and so forth. Yes, man-made greenhouse gas is a small percentage compared to that which is naturally occurring, but the man-made stuff is upsetting a delicate, millions of years old balance that has kept the earth at a fairly constant temperature.

The problem is that there is no good solution that won't result in total economic ruin. All "alternative fuels" are merely energy-storage mediums. Hydrogen is usually made from fossil fuels at the moment, and electrolysis takes a ton more energy than pure hydrogen produces. Ethanol takes a lot of petroleum usage because it has to be produced, refined, and then transported by tanker trucks (it's corrosive to oil pipelines and introduces damaging water) -- of course, that means lots of emissions too. The only real solution is nuclear-powered electrolysis to produce hydrogen -- but with the newest nuclear powerplant in the US being 30 years old, and with nuclear power being a small percentage of what we use, that's unlikely. (Wind and hydroelectric power are also possible solutions, but only in certain regions that will sustain such power sources.)

It's definitely a dilemma.

[HAL9000]

I'm trying to remember where I heard this one, but apparently windmill farms are environmentally damaging. They cause a lot of turbulance behind them which apparently has been shown to add to abnormal errosion.

[ghost2003]

Originally Posted by thefultonhow There's no question that the earth is in the middle of a natural warming cycle. But the consensus in the scientific community is that we're contributing through greenhouse gas emissions -- CO2, methane, and so forth. It's definitely a dilemma.

The word "consensus" does not exist in science.

[David M]

Windmill farms are ugly and kill birds. They have to be put in places where people do not live because they are noisy . This means they have to be placed on undeveloped land...land which used to be pristine. The ultimate power is nuclear fusion...which very few countries are even trying to develop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

[blue60007]

My opinion: give it 10-20 years and we'll be crying there's an ice age coming...(I've heard some people were saying that back in the 70's)

Anyone notice the amount of extreme weather this year...? I wonder if a period of extremes precedes a climate shift?

[thefultonhow]

Originally Posted by ghost2003 The word "consensus" does not exist in science.

Huh? I see scientists using it all the time.

[tomster2300]

I actually took Intro to Weather and Climate last year which was taught by a Dr. who specialized in climatology. We talked about global warming at the end of the semester and while he said he didn't know what to think about it, he didn't think it was nearly as bad as politicians make it out to be.

Global warming is continuously spurred on by politics, which is most unfortunate.

[David M]

Originally Posted by thefultonhow There's no question that the earth is in the middle of a natural warming cycle. But the consensus in the scientific community is that we're contributing through greenhouse gas emissions -- CO2, methane, and so forth. Yes, man-made greenhouse gas is a small percentage compared to that which is naturally occurring, but the man-made stuff is upsetting a delicate, millions of years old balance that has kept the earth at a fairly constant temperature.

A consensus in science does not necessarily mean that something is true. Keep in mind there was once a consensus that the Earth was flat and a consensus that the Earth was at the center of our solar system.

Because most scientists agree on something does not necessarily make it true.


Also, there is not a "millions of years old balance" that keeps the Earth at a "fairly constant temperature" The last ice age ended just 10,000 years ago plus there have been other less extreme and more recent shorter term temperature changes in the Earths atmosphere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

The Aztecs used to make human sacrifices to the gods because they believed that if they stopped, then there would be all sorts of problems (perhaps even global warming?). So do we do the same thing?...alter our lifestyle because man MAY be causing global warming?..when all along it could very well be a natural warming process?

The human caused global warming advocates really are using the same reasoning as the Aztecs.....or any other tribe that prays to the East right before dawn to make sure the sun rises.

You can bet that if it is ever positively confirmed that global warming is occurring by natural causes that these same groups advocating human caused warming will STILL advocate we radically change how we live....pretty much back to a primitive 16th century agrarian society. Why?...because this is their true agenda.