Please 19million for a Toilet

[doubledragon5]

I think the space station is already a wast of money.. By the time there done building it, it will be out dated already.. What will the station really do? Will it provide was to regain our valued but dwindling resources back? Will it help heal the sick? or will it just be there so people can prove once again that life doesn't exist any where but here on earth..


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288414,00.html

[David M]

You can't put a price on knowledge...

You're question has been asked many times before. What good does going into space do for mankind down here on Earth? A very parallel question is, what good is doing basic, fundamental or exploratory research just for the gathering of knowledge? Isn't that what the space station is partially about?...performing science by doing exploratory research?

Did the kings and others who funded Columbus, Marco Polo, Magellan and Cook know what discoveries they were going to get for their money beforehand?

I would hate to see how far mankind has not advanced if exploratory research, done simply for the gathering of knowledge, was never attempted. You never know what you are going to discover until after you have made a discovery.

There are thousands of discoveries as a result of the space program. Many of which have benefited mankind down on Earth. How many more discoveries are there?...who knows. But you can be assured that there is lots more to learn.

Less than 1% of the USA's budget is used to fund NASA. I can think of other government programs that need to be reduced or cut before I would cut NASA. According to Wikipedia, NASA's budget this year will be 17 billion. The US budget will be 2.9 trillion. Therefore, NASA's budget will be 0.586% of the US budget. A little over half a percent is nothing in the big picture. Dollar for dollar, NASA seems to be one of the better deals we are getting for our tax dollars.

Investing in exploratory research is not like making a purchase off the shelves where you pretty much know what you are going to get beforehand. Investing in exploratory research is more like "investing" in the lottery. Lots of times you get worthless information but when you hit something big then lookout!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...federal_budget

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget

[sdkfz]

Originally Posted by doubledragon5 I think the space station is already a wast of money..

You are entitled to that opinion

Originally Posted by doubledragon5 By the time there done building it, it will be out dated already..

OK -Name something new that won't be

Originally Posted by doubledragon5 What will the station really do? Will it provide was to regain our valued but dwindling resources back? Will it help heal the sick? or will it just be there so people can prove once again that life doesn't exist any where but here on earth..

In order..Enable us to conduct research into health care drugs , crystalline/ metalugical technology not possible in gravity, new solutions to new problems adaptable to situations here at the bottom of the gravity well and for the pessimists- grant a few the ability to watch the rest of us destroy ourselves in our armegeddon, yes, and to your last question yes - if life does not exist anywhere else right now then we have a crusade like none ever before, and if there is lets go check them out.

Google "benefits of space dollars"

[thefultonhow]

The problem is that unmanned spaceflight can do pretty much everything of any scientific value that manned spaceflight can, at a much lower cost. Unfortunately, great scientific programs are getting neglected or cut (as just one example, why don't we have a new Hubble yet? The thing was only supposed to last 10 years and it's been 17) because politicians have decided that pointless missions to the Moon and Mars, that will accomplish noting besides a PR opportunity, are more important. This is especially problematic because we have sent multiple relatively cheap unmanned probes to Mars that have already told us far more about the planet than a manned mission could.

[Strider]

I rather see governments spend money on space missions (manned or unmanned) than other things; however, there are other pressing matters on this blue marble that should come first. I agree with DoubleDragron that the space station is a waste of taxpayers money.

[mbossman2]

why is it being done? Because, to quote George Mallory, "because it's there".

exploration for exploration's sake is a time honored tradition...to go beyond what is here to there. Ask: John Cabot, Sir Humphrey Gilbert, James Cook, Francis Drake, Martin Frobisher, John Franklin, Henry Hudson, Jacques Cartier, Samuel de Champlain, Marco Polo, Christopher Columbus, Ferdinand Magellan, Hernando Cortes, Eric the Red, Vasco da Gama, Gaspar Corte Real, Henry the Navigator to name a few. Why sail over the horizon to "Here be Monsters"? Because it's there. And without them and the imagination they inspired and showing us the way, this world would be very very different.

If these men (and those unnamed who sailed with them) as well as the countless others throughout the history of Man, had stayed at home, in safety, we would not be where we are today.

Yes, there are other problems to be dealt with, but this exploration, this reaching to the beyond, must continue. Inertia is an incredibly difficult force to overcome (both in the stopping and the starting) - the process is underway, let it run because if you don't, it will be difficult to restart and the excuses for not even trying will grow and grow until nothing will be done.

In business terms: those who do no R&D, spend no effort in that arena, will, quickly or slowly but inevitably, spiral downward and end up on the trash heap of history.

[Lespaul20]

I could probably find several more wasteful programs than NASA that are some "brilliant politicians" brainchild and will do nothing for society but get them reelected.

According to NASA there are over 30,000 secondary application of the technology NASA has developed. And I guarantee that some of those help heal the sick.

[thefultonhow]

Originally Posted by mbossman2 why is it being done? Because, to quote George Mallory, "because it's there". exploration for exploration's sake is a time honored tradition...to go beyond what is here to there. Ask: John Cabot, Sir Humphrey Gilbert, James Cook, Francis Drake, Martin Frobisher, John Franklin, Henry Hudson, Jacques Cartier, Samuel de Champlain, Marco Polo, Christopher Columbus, Ferdinand Magellan, Hernando Cortes, Eric the Red, Vasco da Gama, Gaspar Corte Real, Henry the Navigator to name a few. Why sail over the horizon to "Here be Monsters"? Because it's there. And without them and the imagination they inspired and showing us the way, this world would be very very different. If these men (and those unnamed who sailed with them) as well as the countless others throughout the history of Man, had stayed at home, in safety, we would not be where we are today. Yes, there are other problems to be dealt with, but this exploration, this reaching to the beyond, must continue. Inertia is an incredibly difficult force to overcome (both in the stopping and the starting) - the process is underway, let it run because if you don't, it will be difficult to restart and the excuses for not even trying will grow and grow until nothing will be done. In business terms: those who do no R&D, spend no effort in that arena, will, quickly or slowly but inevitably, spiral downward and end up on the trash heap of history.

Of course, I don't think any of those explorers would have undertaken such dangerous missions if they could have sent out a robotic mission that would do the exact same thing at a much lower risk and cost.

[doubledragon5]

In order..Enable us to conduct research into health care drugs

If that were the case then all medications we now and use would have been invented in space try again.... Why haven't we been to the moon or any where else in the last 40 yrs or so.. If space exploration is so important, you would think the minds that be in NASA would have sent us else where after successfully landing on the moon..

[David M]

The question comes to mind then, where would you guys who are against NASA put that 0.58% of the US budget?...that would have a greater positive effect than NASA?

You can't think of other programs that are a greater waste that need to be reduced or cut? At least we get something from NASA..with some government programs we get virtually nothing in return.

[doubledragon5]

I'm not saying I'm against NASA, but please lets see some results of the billions of dollars we have spent.. But if you would like that .058% can be used on health care, education, helping the poor,homeless, abused, in this country, and I'm sure I can come up with a whole lot more..

[hitchface]

The issue with that is that the results aren't always on the front page. Good example:

I've recently been getting into kites and stunt kites. After looking around for a bit on how to build my own, I stumbled across a performance calculator that NASA developed, and had been adapted for kites. It could basically calculate center of pressure and center of gravity based on wind, angle of attack, material used, spars used and just about anything else you can think of. It was an extremely complex program (and it did more than what I just listed) used for something so simple.

What this shows is that their research has gone all the way from putting man on the moon to teaching me how a homebuilt kite might perform. That tells me that from big to small they've covered a lot of ground. Is it a ton of money? Yeah, it is. However, some of the smartest people on earth work for them, coming up with amazing ideas that just blow our minds. Imagine being told that man could land on the moon, walk around on it, and find out more about our lives and how things work because of it. Would you tell them that it was a waste of money?

Besides, a space-compatible toilet is nothing to sneeze at.

[glfredrick]

Nothing of value from the space program, huh... Let's see...

I woke up this morning by my battery powered digital alarm clock, which automatically updates the time via satellite. Before i rolled out of bed, I paused for a couple of seconds to think just how great a rest I had the night before on my memory foam mattress. Time was ticking away, however, so I rolled out of bed and hit the floor. The synthetic carpeting under my feet sure felt nice compared to that old wool carpet I had when I was a kid.

I went into the bathroom, where I did the old 3 S's -- sit, shave, shower. As i flushed the toiled I marveled that it now takes such a small amount of water to flush. It was really nice to shave my face with a titanium powered quadruple edge blade as well. I remember back when I used to get cuts all the time from shaving, but this new technology really makes a smooth face a no-brainer. After the shower, I made sure that my germicidal automatic sprayer was all set to clean my shower while I was away, and I made my way to get dressed.

It was the weekend, so I chose to wear my rip-stop nylon jogging suit with the polypropylene underwear and socks that wick away the sweat so I don't feel so clammy as I do my daily duties. My air shoes are also a great help, and my feet really appreciate them. On to the kitchen I went.

I heated up some water in a ceramic cup, and dumped in two spoonfuls of freeze dried coffee. I then warmed up a couple of frozen pancakes, a couple of ready-to-eat sausages, and a few egg-beaters, scrambled, to go with the coffee. It was gonna be a great day. While eating my quick breakfast, I decided to flip on the television to catch up on the world's news. Seems that they're having quite a time over in the Middle East these days. The reporter was sharing info from his cell phone right from the battlefield to my flat screen, satellite TV. I still remember the Viet Nam days, when sending a letter that took a month or so to get home was as good as it got. We thought that we had it good then -- far better than any other soldier in history -- but nothing like today, where there is instant communication that one can hold in the palm of one's hand. As I was flipping channels, I was a bit concerned, however. It seems like half the channels are in a foreign language these days. Guess the world is getting smaller, with air travel being so cheap, and all. Oh well. On to the rest of my day.

I decided that since it was Saturday, I'd hit 18 holes at the golf course, so I checked out my carbon-fiber golf clubs with the titanium inserts. I also made sure I had plenty of those new long-distance golf balls. They sure do shave a few strokes off my game!

As i jumped into my car, the engine fired right up, the seat, mirrors, and steering wheel all moved right into place for "driver 1" and I was set to go. As I started the car, I noticed that the computer was telling me that I had low air pressure on the right rear tire, and that it was time for an oil change. Pesky car computers these days -- always telling you something you'd rather not know... Anyway, I had decided to golf a different course on the other side of town, so I clicked in the old GPS and set a course that would guide me to that course in the least amount of miles. Don't have to stop at the quickie mart to ask directions since I got that baby. My air bags were good to go, my seat belts were self-adjusting, and I was all set to roll. I felt good this morning, so I clicked the traction control device off, and set the transmission to sport mode -- gonna have a bit of fun on the way to the course. My Passport will let me know if that mean old cop is out watching this early in the morning. Of course, he is using laser speed detection equipment these days -- glad I got the new model Passport that detects radar and laser! Along the way, the roads all had stoplight sensors that could detect traffic flow and adjust the timing of the lights to the amount of traffic. It made for a nice ride.

I played my round of golf, and on the way home my wife called me on the cell. I patched her through the car radio so I could drive without holding the phone -- much safer that way. She wanted me to pick up a few things for supper at the store. I really hate shopping, but anything to keep mama happy -- might get lucky tonight... Picked up some milk that had a due-date of next month -- things have really changed since i was a kiddo, when milk only lasted a couple of days. That ultra-pasteurization really helps keep the stuff fresh for a lot longer.

Anyway, at the checkout lane, I was amazed to see that they had self-checking lanes, where you could just scan a bar-code and the computer knew who you were, what you had spent this month at the store, and automatically gave you coupons that were for products you actually use -- plus a dime a gallon off gas for purchasing groceries, so off to the pumps I went. Might as well save the dime while I can. I scanned my card and the pump automatically adjusted the price and metered out just the right amount of gas, while letting me know on the flat-screen on the pump that I could pick up some last minute items right at the pumps. Nah, I thought -- I'm all set, but thanks for the heads up -- one day I might need to pick up some of that stuff.

I was now all set to spend the night relaxing. First some Wii play and then a movie. Wonder what I could upload on digital satellite tonight? I clicked on the old 54" flat screen, booted up the game box, and let fly at some aliens. The scenery was amazing in that game. You'd think they took the pictures right from the Hubble telescope! As I was playing, I heard mama in the kitchen, firing up the gas stove -- that snap, snap, snap of the piezo electric igniter's making quick work of starting a flame. I remember the old pilot light stoves that were dangerous. If the pilot light went out, you could have a gas explosion. Anyway, I knew that dinner would soon be finished, because the microwave bell just went off.

We sat down at the table and had a nice supper, then retired back to the living room to watch a movie. We had our choice of several hundred that we could download from the satellite onto our tivo unit. We chose Mission to Mars -- a great story with a surprise ending... Wonder if we really did get to earth from alien seeding of our planet? Interesting concept -- have to look it up on the web tomorrow...

Ah, a long day of fun in the sun. Sure glad I used sun screen today, or else that pillow wouldn't feel quite as good. Anyway, I hit a couple of buttons and the television in the bedroom was programmed to shut off in 30 minutes, just enough time to pick up Jay Leno, who's monologue tonight was, "Wonder why we're spending so much on space program... Waste of money in my book. We never get much out of it..."



Nothing indeed... The fact that we're sitting in our homes or offices, sending messages back and forth via the Internet, from computers that have billions of transistors that are small enough to fit on a postage stamp, with flat-screen monitors, sound systems, streaming video, satellite up-links, etc., is a miracle of modern science, mainly due to research done for the space program... Everything from food to electronics has been affected -- and betters our life every day.

[glfredrick]

Originally Posted by doubledragon5 If that were the case then all medications we now and use would have been invented in space try again.... Why haven't we been to the moon or any where else in the last 40 yrs or so.. If space exploration is so important, you would think the minds that be in NASA would have sent us else where after successfully landing on the moon..

Without intentionally trying to pick a fight, I'd humbly suggest that the reason we haven't gone further into space is because politicians that need to insure enough votes to get re-elected listen to people making your argument, and they give them what they think they want.

Never mind that the "great social experiment" (read that, the intent to release people from poverty and misery) has utterly failed, even after pumping trillions of dollars into it since the 1960s. By now, we could have actually accomplished some things of value that could have actually given people something to look forward to besides an entitlement check that is never enough.

Simply put, NASA has had its budget slashed by backward-looking administrations that, like a lot of the public, never actually think about all the good the space program has pumped into our economy and our lives.

Think I'm out of whack? Then get rid of your cell phone, get rid of your computer, your digital ANYTHING, and let's go back to 1960s America. You have to tune up your car about once every couple of months to try to keep it running. You have to push a round dial around a phone face in order to click in one number, then repeat for the next, and you don't get to walk around when you talk. The phone cord is only about 6 feet long. You turn on the television -- a giant thing in a wooden cabinet with a tinny speaker, and you get ALL THREE channels -- ABC, NBC, CBS. What is this world coming to.

When it is time to eat, you warm up stuff on the stove or in the oven. There are NO instant foods, no microwaves, no Foreman Grills, barely any frozen foods, certainly not the wide selection in the stores these days. Fruits and vegetables were only had while in season -- and generally from local markets -- or you grew your own out back. There were no miracle fabrics that did so many things -- keep you warm and dry like gore-tex, or toasty in the winter like some of the holo-fil materials. No Pizza delivery, no Chinese take-out. No video games. No digital ANYTHING.

No, I think that the space program has been the single greatest bang for the buck in American history.

[thefultonhow]

Yes, a lot of stuff has come from the space program. However, how much of that has been invented because of manned spaceflight, and how much has been invented due to spaceflight period, manned or unmanned? I see lots of good in unmanned spaceflight, because it allows us to learn stuff about the universe that we wouldn't otherwise know -- but to get a few more gimmicks, like freeze-dried coffee, just because we want to send people up at a much higher cost and risk, is in my opinion a bad idea.

[Lespaul20]

Originally Posted by thefultonhow Of course, I don't think any of those explorers would have undertaken such dangerous missions if they could have sent out a robotic mission that would do the exact same thing at a much lower risk and cost.

I disagree. Some people have more drive for adventure than to sit behind a joystick and play a video game.

I would much rather go visit the Grand Canyon or any place of the like than to just sit at my computer and look at pictures.

[sdkfz]

Originally Posted by doubledragon5 If that were the case then all medications we now and use would have been invented in space try again....

You asked if it would help heal the sick, I said yes. You countered that then all previous medical knowledge could not possbly have come about since it was not done in space.

Your arguments are specious, and employ special pleadings to maintain your position. If you had researched the claims with a simple Google you would have found that your data to be presumptuous.

Here are some medical benefits of NASA money spent on both manned and un manned exploration.

DIGITAL IMAGING BREAST BIOPSY SYSTEM - The LORAD Stereo Guide Breast Biopsy system incorporates advanced Charge Coupled Devices (CCDs) as part of a digital camera system. The resulting device images breast tissue more clearly and efficiently. Known as stereotactic large-core needle biopsy, this nonsurgical system developed with Space Telescope Technology is less traumatic and greatly reduces the pain, scarring, radiation exposure, time, and money associated with surgical biopsies.

BREAST CANCER DETECTION - A solar cell sensor is positioned directly beneath x-ray film, and determines exactly when film has received sufficient radiation and has been exposed to optimum density. Associated electronic equipment then sends a signal to cut off the x-ray source. Reduction of mammography x-ray exposure reduces radiation hazard and doubles the number of patient exams per machine.

LASER ANGIOPLASTY - Laser angioplasty with a "cool" type of laser, caller an excimer laser, does not damage blood vessel walls and offers precise non-surgical cleanings of clogged arteries with extraordinary precision and fewer complications than in balloon angioplasty.

ULTRASOUND SKIN DAMAGE ASSESSMENT - Advanced instrument using NASA ultrasound technology enables immediate assessment of burn damage depth, improving patient treatment, and may save lives in serious burn cases.

HUMAN TISSUE STIMULATOR - Employing NASA satellite technology, the device is implanted in the body to help patient control chronic pain and involuntary motion disorders through electrical stimulation of targeted nerve centers or particular areas of the brain.

COOL SUIT - Custom-made suit derived from space suits circulates coolant through tubes to lower patient's body/ temperature, producing dramatic improvement of symptoms of multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, spina bifida and other conditions.

PROGRAMMABLE PACEMAKER - Incorporating multiple NASA technologies, the system consists of the implant and a physician's computer console containing the programming and a data printer. Communicates through wireless telemetry signals.

OCULAR SCREENING - NASA image processing techniques are used to detect eye problems in very young children. An electronic flash from a 35-millimeter camera sends light into the child's eyes, and a photorefractor analyzes the retinal reflexes, producing an image of each eye.

AUTOMATED URINALYSIS - NASA fluid dynamics studies helped development of system that automatically extracts and transfers sediment from urine sample to an analyzer microscope, replacing the manual centrifuge method.

MEDICAL GAS ANALYZER - Astronaut-monitoring technology used to develop system to monitor operating rooms for analysis of anesthetic gasses and measurement of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and nitrogen concentrations to assure proper breathing environment for surgery patients.

VOICE-CONTROLLED WHEELCHAIR - NASA teleoperator and robot technology used to develop chair and manipulator that respond to 35 one-word voice commands utilizing a minicomputer to help patient perform daily tasks, like picking up packages, opening doors, and turning on appliances.

Other spinoffs in this area include: Arteriosclerosis detection, ultrasound scanners, automatic insulin pump, portable x-ray device, invisible braces, dental arch wire, palate surgery technology, clean room apparel, implantable heart aid, MRI, bone analyzer, and cataract surgery tools.

[doubledragon5]

If all of those came from space, then why do we need scientist here on the ground? Just send to the space laboratory LOL!!!

[Force Flow]

Unfortunatly, most people don't think of stuff in that way when it comes to NASA.

Personally, I'm all for increasing NASA's budget, and getting rid of a lot of these useless social engineering/public services programs. Most of these programs in place don't work, aren't used, and are just black holes for cash. Seeing as we've always had upper and lower classes of people since the dawn of time, I don't thing any of this is going to help change that. All it does is help politicans look good. Funding NASA, on the other hand, appears as wasteful, while it's actually the other way around.

Heck, I want my own space ship!

[David M]

I would like to see NASA develop a new cost effective long distance aircraft that skirts the upper atmosphere that can get us to our destinations two to three times faster. There is no doubt as to how such an aircraft could benefit mankind.

I would also like to see NASA develop a new a space telescope with at least 100 times the light gathering capacity as the Hubble.

More unmanned missions to all of our solar systems planets, moons, comets and asteroids would also be interesting. For now, manned missions only make sense for orbiting this planet because of the cost effectiveness of sending unmanned probes to distant places.

Sending manned spacecraft to distant places is a romantic notion but the cost is (ahem) astronomical.

[hitchface]

Originally Posted by David M I would like to see NASA develop a new cost effective long distance aircraft that skirts the upper atmosphere that can get us to our destinations two to three times faster. There is no doubt as to how such an aircraft could benefit mankind.

So you basically want an F-104 Starfighter with higher occupancy. I think they are actually working on that...let's just hope it doesn't handle like the Starfighter does.

[glfredrick]

Originally Posted by Force Flow Unfortunatly, most people don't think of stuff in that way when it comes to NASA. Personally, I'm all for increasing NASA's budget, and getting rid of a lot of these useless social engineering/public services programs. Most of these programs in place don't work, aren't used, and are just black holes for cash. Seeing as we've always had upper and lower classes of people since the dawn of time, I don't thing any of this is going to help change that. All it does is help politicans look good. Funding NASA, on the other hand, appears as wasteful, while it's actually the other way around. Heck, I want my own space ship!

Well said...

Of course, NASA doesn't buy any votes for the party that is promulgating all the social programs, does it?

[Stuey]

$19 million? That's it?

I'm all for increasing NASA's budget as well, although I doubt that NASA's responsible for the development of more aerodynamic golf balls.

[David M]

Originally Posted by hitchface So you basically want an F-104 Starfighter with higher occupancy. I think they are actually working on that...let's just hope it doesn't handle like the Starfighter does.

I was thinking more along the lines of something that can carry hundreds of passengers...for commercial use. I don't see much more need for developing military weapons...we already have more and better than any other country on this planet and the politicians are too frightened of using what we already have.

[hitchface]

That's what I meant when I said 'with higher occupancy'. The Starfighter has already skimmed the atmosphere, so it made sense.

[David M]

Originally Posted by Stuey $19 million? That's it? I'm all for increasing NASA's budget as well, although I doubt that NASA's responsible for the development of more aerodynamic golf balls.

A little off topic but technology exists for golf balls that go further but they are illegal for use under USGA rules. There is a standardized machine that tests how far golf balls fly.

http://www.usga.org/equipment/confor...gball_list.pdf

[doubledragon5]

Originally Posted by David M I was thinking more along the lines of something that can carry hundreds of passengers...for commercial use. I don't see much more need for developing military weapons...we already have more and better than any other country on this planet and the politicians are too frightened of using what we already have.

Your right with all of the weapons in the world there is enough to destory this planed 10 time over.. I'm for the increase as well, I have always liked astronomy, but I wish the would have developed space planes yrs ago..

[terryleaman]

It's not all American, Europe is involved as well see

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6898269.stm