Honda Civic dies when engine is only just getting warm?

[bd1886]

Running across a confusing situation on a newly purchased '95 Honda Civic. When driving for just a short while , the engine dies and won't start until it cools down. The temps. aren't high at all when it begins to stutter a bit and dies. The car is my sons (he worked it off with the people who have had it since it was new) and is in absolutely immaculate condition with barely over 100 thousand miles. Runs smooth and tight when running at freeway speeds. I'm no mechanic but from experiences past, am thinking it could be possibly one of three things. A thermostat,bad chip sensor,or possibly a catalytic converter. The first one would be a slam dunk. But the other two would be much more expensive for him to repair. He received such a fair deal on such a potentially good car (and he did know the issue going in) that he feels pretty good about it. Any Ideas?

[HAL9000]

I would rule out thermostat. 99% of thermostats when they go will stick open and the car won't fully heat up, but won't cause them to die. There is one design of thermostat that I have seen that when they go, they stay closed instead.. this will cause the car to overheat.. but you didn't mention if there was an overheating problem.

The only thing that can really go wrong with the catalytic convertor is to have it plug up. In this case, the car would become very sluggish and unresponsive. It could stall the engine, but you would still be able to start only to continue with the same problems.

[thefultonhow]

Check your idle air control valve and/or air regulator valve. Both have to do with making sure the engine works right on cold starts.

[MaxRat]

to get the info you must consider the basics...

you only need 3 things for a engine to run...Air, Fuel and Spark...

when you lose one of those the engine dies...you need to figure out which one you are losing and why?

I would check for spark as soon as the engine dies and refuses to start...

Just pull a plug wire and put a old spark plug in the end of the wire and set the plug on a metal part of the engine and crank it over...

If you got no spark then you need to find out why...

several factors control spark from simple sensors to the coil packs and ignition module and ECM

If you have spark then test for fuel...when the engine dies test for fuel presssure during cranking.. if you have fuel pressure then check and injector...

you'll always have air thats just one factor you cannot remove... you may have less than edequate but you'll still have it...

You didnt mention if when it stalls does it try to fire when restarting?


I just went over this on a 92 GMC Jimmy...would run awesome cold but soon as it hit 110degrees it would run at anything less than full throttle. After several test it ended up being the Spider injector...it's a batchfire system meaning it fires all the injectors at the same time reguardless of engine cycle and the main injector was not firing...due to improper cleaning..

first thing that comes to mind is a fuel pump...? or a fualty module

The catalytic convertor wont cause it to die when warm...how ever it would cause it to run like a big turd...but it would also be like then when cold...

to test for convertor pluggage you need to drill and put a 3/8 plug in the pipe before the convertor with a 1/8 vacuum line nipple and run that to a pressure guage... you should have no more than 5 psi of pressure at any given time...idle or cruise

another way to tell if the convertor is partially plugged is to drive it hard for 20-30 miles as hard as you legally can...pull over on the shoulder and look at the convertor...a pluged one will be cherry red but cool pretty fast when you stop...

[bd1886]

Thanks for the responses.(Means a lot to get this resolved as soon as possible.)

The car fires fine when it dies and overheating is not occurring.One thing the previous owner did do, to get it going quicker,was to cool the block by pouring water on the lower block only. Tried this and it does do the trick.The block does not seem very hot as it doesn't generate much steam. (Didn't feel comfortable doing this as would imagine uniform cooling on an aluminum block is pretty important.) But after realizing how relatively cool it was, figured it wasn't too big a deal to do it just to get the car to the house.

I'll start chasing the fuel pump possibility (then the injector and module if that doesn't seem to be the issue).

Again...BIG THANKS!!! I'll let you know what shakes down.

[rjfvillarosa]

As the engine warms up listen for a very high pitched whistle around the intake manifold, also try spraying WD40 around the joint between the intake manifold and the head, any change in engine note could indicate an air leak and for a moment the car will run on a lean mix of WD40 and petrol.
If any of the above occur you have an airleak in the manifold and the car is suffering from petrol starvation as the cold start injector shuts off at operating temperature.

[MaxRat]

whats on the exterior on the block that you may be cooling to help it start...

When it does stall does it try to start back up but just cant muster enough to stay running or does it just crank over...?

if you just leave it set for the same amount of time as if you put water on the block will it start...?

Maybe somethings cooling off enough on it's own and just the watering of the block it filling in the time?


Also does it die with your foot on the gas or when you let off on an idle?

if you can give it gas and keep it running it may not be a fuel pump...if it dies even with your foot on the throttle it maybe...

it depends on the thoroughness of the symptoms...

how it dies and or when it dies...what have you done to try to keep it running...when it starts to stall does giving it more than half or full throttle bring it back?

may try changing the fuel filter if it hasnt been changed...also check to see if fuel pressure is within spec...I'd be guessing 45-60psi any auto parts store has a fuel pressure guage for fuel injected engines...

[BigRed CC Dually]

I'll have to second what Thefultonhow said above. My son has a 97 Civic and the idle air valve was the culprit. I used a cat- converter safe carb cleaner to clean out the idle air valve.

[MaxRat]

that sensor governs idle speed...if it was bad it would die all the time hot or cold...

if you dont think so...unhook it...

[Brad the best]

Originally Posted by MaxRat that sensor governs idle speed...if it was bad it would die all the time hot or cold... if you dont think so...unhook it...

agreed , a bad iac or plugged iac will cause it to idle like crap all the time . but it wont hurt to clean out the throttle body and sensors .

i think your onto something with the fuel pump or fuel filter .when ever anything like this happens change the fuel filter because that is the first thing a auto shop will do .

my jeep did this for a bit , the fuel pump kept on shorting out but only when it was hot . i don't know why only hot ...... but hey , its a jeep .

i would test fuel pressure (schrader valve on the fuel rail) if you can't find it buy a haynes manual .

if you really think its the catty then pull it and ether gut it or put in a new one .

i wouldn't be chucking buckets of water on your engine , not good to rapidly cool it like that .

[thefultonhow]

Originally Posted by Brad the best agreed , a bad iac or plugged iac will cause it to idle like crap all the time .

This isn't true. My Subaru had a problem with its idle only when it was warmed up with the AC off. The idle would drop nearly to zero, the engine would stumble, and then the idle would go back up to 800 rpm. This would happen every few seconds. It ran fine when cold or when the AC was on. I ran Seafoam through the IAC valve and the problem was fixed.

[bd1886]

Well...did 2 things and it was neither. Distributor module and the coil. Was very fortunate to have a mobile mechanic doing work across the street and he just so happened to have the parts so I did the installs for both to no avail. So after re-installing the original units, we're back to square one! (Going to have to do something for him as that was very generous!)
You guy's have been doin' some thinkin'! One thing we absolutely narrowed it down to is it is a lack of spark. The main computer is another possibility. Looks to be a 300.00 part so will try and get this resolved before trying that (as he "just doesn't happen to have one of those" on his truck!). Well...tomorrows another day so... Thanks everyone!

[Brad the best]

so you beleive you have a lack of spark and you have changed the coil and distributor mod . think about wires and plugs perhaps . there isn't much else in the system .

[HAL9000]

I agree, lack of spark wouldn't come from the computer at all... coil, cap, rotor, wires, plugs.

[bd1886]

The thing that proves no spark was a test on the coil wire(the mechanic did it when the car was cranking during the "dead period") and nothing at all. MaxRat...One of the areas being cooled down by the water was where a sensor is going into the block. Wonder if those can go bad? Or is there something at that point of entry that could be malfunctioning to create a localized heat spike? (You know........Its probable that it's going to boil down to something ridiculously simple and make all this extrapolation a mental exercise punctuated with a big...Doh!!)


(OK THEN...A PLUGS,CAP, AND WIRES CHECK IT WILL BE)

[thefultonhow]

If the plugs, cap, rotor and wires don't do it, check the coil too.

[HAL9000]

OK, but if the coil was tested at the point it died and the coil was not producing any umph for spark, that tells me it's either the coil itself or the coil isn't getting any power which means you have to chase down that line.

[bd1886]

Well... we did replace the coil. So going to see if there is a relay possibly failing. One thing possibilities are running out so as Sherlock Holmes said....

[glc]

I'd be looking at some electronic component that is going open or short when it gets warm. This can be a real bear to track down. Freeze mist may be helpful - as will some kind of documentation that identifies what is what on that car.

[rjfvillarosa]

Originally Posted by bd1886 One of the areas being cooled down by the water was where a sensor is going into the block. Wonder if those can go bad?

That sensor is probably the "Knock Sensor" or "Crank Sensor". This sensor detects the position of the crank shaft and determines the correct moment to energize the spark plugs (timing), they are relatively cheap and easy to replace, they are also very prone to breaking down.

[MaxRat]

Originally Posted by rjfvillarosa That sensor is probably the "Knock Sensor" or "Crank Sensor". This sensor detects the position of the crank shaft and determines the correct moment to energize the spark plugs (timing), they are relatively cheap and easy to replace, they are also very prone to breaking down.

bingo....

the ECM has everything to do with not getting spark...

the ignition module sends the info to the ecm and it reads the sensors in relation to that...

if the crankshaft sensor fails to read the ecm wont send the trigger to the module/coil....and no spark...

change the sensor in question and see if that works...

all the crank sensor is, is a magnetic trigger of a reluctor ring on the crankshaft itself...

knock sensor shouldnt cause a no spark symptom it will how ever retard it and make low power ....pretty much a slug to drive...

[bd1886]

Been busy chasing this down a bit further and have only eliminated other things. Checked compression, fuel pump, ECU (No diagnostic, but it is ambient temperature.) Perplexing gents.

Ordered a Chiltons and it'll be here tomorrow. (So... "I'll have pictures !") Only thing left, it seems ,is the actual sensors, a true diagnostic of the ECU and components, and licking that fuzzy stuff off the muffler.

[bailey]

did you check all the error codes from the computer ?
that would be the fastest and easyest way to check the operation of the whole system.
sears also sells a reader that you plug into the jack, then drive around till it dies and then remove the modual and connect it to your computer , it will tell you everything that is going on inside the system of the engine and print it all out for you.
the brand name is carchip

[bd1886]

Now that sounds like one heck of a gadget! Definitely going to check into that for sure. Doubt it's cheap, but with every car made nowadays having analysis capabilities, that might just be a man toy for the future. Pretty cool. Going to check out the few possibilities with that mobile mechanic tomorrow and hopefully find resolution.

You do so much for your kids and what do you get? Soap on a rope! Nah..good kid.

Going to go check out that Carchip thing. (Remember my grandfather telling me that you could fix everything on a "Model T" with a screw driver, pair of pliers, and some bailing wire. He'd crap his pants seeing a modern toolbox.)

[thefultonhow]

I am not sure if the 1995 Civic is OBDII, which it would have to be to use that code scanner. You might want to check that first. However, both of my vehicles are OBDI and it's pretty easy to check codes on them, too. You just have to use a procedure to put them in diagnostic mode and then count the number of times the check engine light flashes.

[MaxRat]

if it doesnt pop a code on its own when it dies theres a pretty good chance there wont be a code stored to retrieve...

without being a shop diagnostic computer you wont know what part is not reading...the tools they sell to the public are just general reader...it will just say "Ignition" if you arent getting any spark...

heres what I would do...go to the autopart store and look up and take a look at everything in the Ignition line...like module and crank sensor...

if they look like the sensors you are cooling then that may get you closer...

Most auto part stores can test ignition modules...so you could have yours tested for sure...

[bailey]

the car chip is not the normal code scanner, it actually reads all the data the car computer reads and stores the data in a memory and the home computer then reads all the data on the carchip and will display everything and shows in a graph all the performance data like speed, acceleration, deceleration, timing, all of the sensors, heck i can't name them all, but then it also does read the error codes too, but the best part of it is all the other data it collects for you. even how many miles you drove it.while the chip was connected.

[bd1886]

Just walked in (w/ a new Chiltons in hand). We'll see about learning what everything is now.

Read the reviews on the different Carchip models and even the least expensive one is very impressive in as far as basically giving a history of recent operating data. Something else!

Ended up having to work late so wasn't able to pursue this issue much. However I was able to drive the car in driving conditions that I hadn't subjected it to. (And even though the spark was in serious question, found that on mid speed country roads, you can keep the car from dying by playing with the gas pedal.) It would run like it had either a slightly flooded condition or starving for fuel. This perplexes me a bit because of the no coil wire spark when car was not starting (but cranking). Unless the coil won't spark when the cylinder is lacking fuel because of computer control?

Reading the Chiltons tonight.

[MaxRat]

Just a thought...

Check any grond wires the are on the engine, frame and firewall...

I had an issue early this year with my truck that when I started it cold it would run great until it started to warm up...

Then on anything other than idle it would miss and pop in the mufflers...it would flat out shut off at anything over part throttle...

Sounded like a fuel problem but you could smell the fuel and when you left up on the throttle it would bang in the mufflers pretty hard...

Once it even blew the weld out...

By the time I found it I felt pretty stupid...It was the double set of ground wires attached to the Thermostat housing...

Got a great connection cold but a little heat in the motor and the 2 bolt holding the Thermostat cover would lose ground...

I just put new ends on the wires and moved them to another location and problem solved..

I have a 03 Civic and almost the same story. Got the car a month ago and 2 weeks after that it started with similar trouble. Al tough, mine doesn't die completely.

Only during the first start in the morning, if I let the car idle for about 2 minutes, the RPM drops to 2-300 and the engine sounds like its starving for fuel for about 10 seconds and then heals itself and runs fine for the rest of the day.. Took it to a dealer but he could not find anything for 2 complete days. His problem being that he can see the problem only during mornings for 10 seconds.