yet another downloader...

[pam123]

So I finally gave in decided to buy a song from Amazon, at least they gave me the option of skipping their down loader.

Wrong.
I now have something else living in my system tray.

What's with these guys ?
How hard is it to figure out they should not be doing this ?

[David M]

Originally Posted by pam123 So I finally gave in decided to buy a song from Amazon, at least they gave me the option of skipping their down loader. Wrong. I now have something else living in my system tray. What's with these guys ? How hard is it to figure out they should not be doing this ?

Isn't it fun when someone else decides for you what you need?

[hitchface]

Good point.

What I don't get is why people see fit to add bloat. Do they honestly think I'm gonna say "Oh, well THANK you Amazon! That is SOOOOO convenient!" No. I'm gonna say "Hey! GET this CRAP off my PC!"

/mini rant.

[rjfvillarosa]

What they don't realize is that people are not as stupid as they think. Anyone who like Pam is computer savvy will not buy from them again, so they have lost a customer and their tracking/spyware crap is not going to work in this instance.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by rjfvillarosa What they don't realize is that people are not as stupid as they think. Anyone who like Pam is computer savvy will not buy from them again, so they have lost a customer and their tracking/spyware crap is not going to work in this instance.

the problem is for every pam there are 100 (or more) who aren't and that is what amazon is betting upon.

the freedom of the web is a double edged sword. on the one hand folks want their private property respected but think nothing of regulating other folks' private property rights ('net neutrality').

Be vigilant and be wary...any law/rule/regulation can be twisted to meet someone's agenda.

[pam123]

Self interest was always suppose to be a sure guide for business.
That should read : Self interest works when you can think beyond the next quarter.

[SonicVanguard]

As mbossman2 pointed out - Amazon.com is assuming most of their clients are not computer savvy. Amazon's business model is very successful - on of the most successful on-line. So they are not going to change unless the masses provide feedback to the contrary.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by pam123 Self interest was always suppose to be a sure guide for business. That should read : Self interest works when you can think beyond the next quarter.

today's business world, especially for publicly traded companies, calls for positive results by the next quarter. that is one of the bad things that the internet has wrought - day trader joe playing the market and turning it into one big casino.

companies report record earnings but for the placement of a comma or period or pregnant pause during the earnings call their stock plunges like a stone.

but back on point:

we have to face it: we are the exceptions when it comes to computers. we, to one extent or another, understand what is happening inside the box and actually pay attention to subtle changes but the rest of the world: they don't know and don't care until something goes kerfloooey or they become outraged over some real or perceived issue. Only when the masses make it an issue does it become an issue.

[rjfvillarosa]

Originally Posted by mbossman2 the problem is for every pam there are 100 (or more) who aren't and that is what amazon is betting upon.

Very true Bossman, it's this type of underhanded exploitation that jerks my chain.

Originally Posted by SonicVanguard So they are not going to change unless the masses provide feedback to the contrary.

And I don't see that happening any time in the near future Dave.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by rjfvillarosa Very true Bossman, it's this type of underhanded exploitation that jerks my chain.

If this is disclosed in the T's and C's of the downloading agreement/license, is it really underhanded?

If the customer fails to fully read the disclosure is it the fault of the company or the customer?

[Lespaul20]

What exactly did it install Pam?

[rjfvillarosa]

Originally Posted by mbossman2 If this is disclosed in the T's and C's of the downloading agreement/license, is it really underhanded? If the customer fails to fully read the disclosure is it the fault of the company or the customer?

Good points Bossman, it would be interesting to know what the T's and C's are and are they stated clearly.

[hitchface]

My wife and I talk about that a lot, the privacy statements and the fine print. Since we are in internet marketing, we have to deal with that all the time. Here is our philosophy:

If it seems underhanded, it is. Even if our rules are in the fine print for all to read, we know darn well that next to nobody is gonna read it. People will think they are being treated unfairly, even if they aren't. A lot of companies are like this; they follow the CAN SPAM act to a tee, but you still get people who think they've been swindled because - you guessed it - they don't know any better. So we try to make things as plain and simple as possible...draw more attention to that fine print, and where applicable, exceed the requirements of the CAN SPAM act.

I know the topic of emails is a little different from a downloader, but its the same basic concept.

[pam123]

Originally Posted by Lespaul20 What exactly did it install Pam?

The Amazon music store has it's own down loader which is suppose to be optional for single songs but necessary if you down load an album.
Since I only wanted one song, I skipped it.
It installed any way.

I uninstalled it and contacted Amazon's customer service.

[David M]

It would be interesting if Amazon takes the time to write you back and if they do, what they had to say. Keep us posted

[SonicVanguard]

I checked the Amazon MP3 Music Service: Terms of Use - you don't have to use the downloader to download single songs but they still reserve the right to provide users of their service with software to assist in downloading music from their service. It's right there in the agreement - you can't miss it (sec. 3.1 - 3.5).

Sorry Pam, but I have no sympathy. This is another case of your jumping on the privacy/consumer rights bandwagon without full knowledge of which you speak.

[pam123]

Originally Posted by SonicVanguard I checked the Amazon MP3 Music Service: Terms of Use - you don't have to use the downloader to download single songs but they still reserve the right to provide users of their service with software to assist in downloading music from their service. It's right there in the agreement - you can't miss it (sec. 3.1 - 3.5). Sorry Pam, but I have no sympathy. This is another case of your jumping on the privacy/consumer rights bandwagon without full knowledge of which you speak.

I know you don't have to use the down loader, I didn't.

However the problem is cleared up.
I can't get to email at the moment, on another computer, but the down loader remaining that night was a glitch that has since been corrected.
Amazon has apologized and it seems I wasn't the only one who contacted them about this.

[SonicVanguard]

So you basically still blame them for making it clear that the software (A) exists, and (B) that the downloader may very well be installed on your computer?

Amazing.

[Lespaul20]

If Amazon apologized it would seem to be that there was something happened that shouldn't have.

You remind me of Willy Wonka in post #16.

[Disgrace]

Originally Posted by Lespaul20 If Amazon apologized it would seem to be that there was something happened that shouldn't have.

But then if they didn't, the saga would go on and on and on and on...

[Disgrace]

Sorry, double posted.

[SonicVanguard]

Originally Posted by Lespaul20 If Amazon apologized it would seem to be that there was something happened that shouldn't have. You remind me of Willy Wonka in post #16.

Unfortunately in the corporate world it's generally easier to apologize for something you didn't do than it is to try and explain why you're right.

[catacon]

It seems to me like Pam selected to not download the downloader, but it downloaded it anyway. In that case Amazon would be in the wrong. But I could be wrong, too.

[pam123]

Guys on the night I downloaded one song from Amazon, without, I repeat, without, the downloader as I have said previously something was going awry on the Amazon site.
The song downloaded OK but the software used to do it came and stayed, it wasn't suppose to do that.
I emailed support, they noticed the error and they fixed it.
Kudos to Amazon for great customer service and my thanks to the rep who emailed me the results.

[SonicVanguard]

Originally Posted by catacon It seems to me like Pam selected to not download the downloader, but it downloaded it anyway. In that case Amazon would be in the wrong. But I could be wrong, too.

From Amazon:

3.1 General. We may make available to you, from time to time, software for your use in connection with the Service (any and all such software, individually and collectively, the "Software"). 3.2 Use of the Software. You may use the Software only in connection with the Service. You may not separate any individual component of the Software for use other than in connection with the Service, may not incorporate any portion of it into your own programs or compile any portion of it in combination with your own programs, may not transfer it for use with another service, or use it, or any portion of it, over a network and may not sell, rent, lease, lend, loan, distribute or sub-license the Software or otherwise assign any rights to the Software in whole or in part. We may discontinue some or all of any Software we provide, and we may terminate your right to use any Software at any time and in such event may modify it to make it inoperable. 3.3 No Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, or Disassembly; Updates. You may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, modify, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Software, whether in whole or in part, or create any derivative works from or of the Software. We may offer updates of the Software, from time to time, for feature enhancement, security or other purposes. We will not automatically update the Software, unless you authorize us to do so. 3.4 Export Regulations; Government End Users. You agree to comply with all export and re-export restrictions and regulations of the Department of Commerce and other United States agencies and authorities that may apply to the Software. If you are a U.S. Government end user, we are licensing the Software to you as a "Commercial Item" as that term is defined in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (see 48 C.F.R. § 2.101), and the rights we grant you to the Software are the same as the rights we grant to all others under this Agreement. 3.5 Damages Cap. Without limiting the Disclaimer of Warranties and Limitation of Liability in the Amazon.com Conditions of Use, in no event shall our or our software licensors' total liability to you for all damages (other than as may be required by applicable law in cases involving personal injury) arising out of or related to your use or inability to use the Software exceed the amount of fifty dollars ($50.00). This limitation will apply even if the remedy fails of its essential purpose.

Seems to me that says they (Amazon.com) are reserving the right to supply you with software - when you accept their terms of service, you accept they may install software on your system. Pretty cut and dry.

As I said, it's much easier (and better PR) for a large corporation to say "I'm sorry" rather than say "did you look at what you agreed to when you started using our service...ha ha, we're right, you're wrong."

[David M]

Originally Posted by SonicVanguard From Amazon: Seems to me that says they (Amazon.com) are reserving the right to supply you with software - when you accept their terms of service, you accept they may install software on your system. Pretty cut and dry. As I said, it's much easier (and better PR) for a large corporation to say "I'm sorry" rather than say "did you look at what you agreed to when you started using our service...ha ha, we're right, you're wrong."

If I offered "make available to you" some software would I also be installing it onto your computer? The answer is a very clear no. An offer to provide software and an actual download and installation are two very distinct actions.

If I offered you a bicycle would that mean that you also posses and use that bicycle?

Because you are being offered ZoneAlarm right now, does this mean that ZoneLabs has any right to download it onto your computer?

If the Agreement had said, "Amazon reserves the right to download and install software onto your computer at our discretion", then Pam would not have an argument.

Pam had that software forced upon her. It went far beyond an offer.

As I see it, Pam had a legitimate beef with Amazon.

[Lespaul20]

Good point.

[SonicVanguard]

Originally Posted by David M If I offered "make available to you" some software would I also be installing it onto your computer? The answer is a very clear no. An offer to provide software and an actual download and installation are two very distinct actions. If I offered you a bicycle would that mean that you also posses and use that bicycle? Because you are being offered ZoneAlarm right now, does this mean that ZoneLabs has any right to download it onto your computer? If the Agreement had said, "Amazon reserves the right to download and install software onto your computer at our discretion", then Pam would not have an argument. Pam had that software forced upon her. It went far beyond an offer. As I see it, Pam had a legitimate beef with Amazon.

Hardly - and your comparing apples to oranges. Amazon uses ambiguous terminology in their terms of service so to make sure they are covering themselves.

Try downloading a song from Amazon - you're specifically told the software will download. You don't need to use it to download a single song bu it is required to download a complete album. If I were to purchase a bike from you you would include a seat - a seat I don't need to use but would certainly need to on a long journey. If I were to download ZoneAlarm from ZoneLabs I don't need to use it - but it's there if I need to.

I have purchased a number of songs from Amazon (although I still prefer iTunes) and have uninstalled their downloader each time after the song I purchase is on my computer.

[hitchface]

Pam deselected the option to download the software though. The option shouldn't be there if they'll download it anyways. That is Amazon's fault.

[SonicVanguard]

Originally Posted by hitchface Pam deselected the option to download the software though. The option shouldn't be there if they'll download it anyways. That is Amazon's fault.

You're just given the option not to use it, there is no option not to download it. As I said, they install it suspecting you'll need it when you download an entire album. I guess I don't find it hard to uninstall - it's painless, takes less than a minute and the uninstall is clean.