The 5th Amendment and your passwords

[TwoRails]

I found this to be pretty interesting. It's a short read:

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/pre...ally_protected

[Strider]

While they waiting for a ruling from the appeal, I would hire a very good hacker to see if they can crack the locked drive (If I was to betting person I think they're already doing this).

[HAL9000]

Wouldn't that be a felony crime to hack the machine?

[TwoRails]

would it be any different, if in police custody, to simple view unlocked files or to hack it? Interesting notion...

[Force Flow]

Originally Posted by HAL9000 Wouldn't that be a felony crime to hack the machine?

It would definately make the "evidence" inadmissable in court, if nothing else.

[Lespaul20]

Originally Posted by HAL9000 Wouldn't that be a felony crime to hack the machine?

If a search warrant was issued for the data how is it any different than breaking into a home or car?

[Strider]

Surely there must be a way they could legally hack the computer without the pedophile losing his 5th Amendment Rights? Like a search warrant granted by a judge?

[HAL9000]

This is where the fine print of the 5th and the laws regarding hacking must be brushed with a fine tooth comb... It is possible that the encrypted data is not admissible. It's like the case we were told about when I took my ciitzens police academy course... they nailed a guy with over $40K cash stolen from an ATM machine with bogus credit cards... they knew he had over $2,000,000 in a bank account, but couldn't touch a penny of it... obviously from the same crime, but no proof of how it was obtained.... do you really think he cared about his 2 years in jail? Do you think he'll fly straight when he gets out? Doubt it.

[juppy]

Originally Posted by Lespaul20 If a search warrant was issued for the data how is it any different than breaking into a home or car?

I think I'd have to agree with this statement. I can see the point of view of those saying it violates the 5th for him to "give" them the password, but it looks like they could just file for a search warrant for the computer and get around that hangup. I mean, if they suspect you have drugs in your house, you can refuse entry to them when they ask, if they don't have a warrant. But if they get the search warrant, they can just bust in and do their thing. Only difference in this case would be instead of a battering ram to knock a door down, they'd be using a hacker to crack the password. Just my opinion.....I've seen dumber things happen in the legal system though.

[mbossman2]

I'd love to hear LawyerRon and Computer hobbyists' opinions on this one

[TwoRails]

Ya, but both of them seem to be hiding a lot...

[piasabird]

Hacking it might violate the PGP software license as well.

[hitchface]

Then the PGP license might be found to be obstructing justice.

[novie]

It's not that they're not allowed to circumvent the encryption since they clearly have enough anecdotal evidence to obtain a search warrant, it's that they can't. They're not allowed to 'hack' the guy's brain for the password.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by hitchface Then the PGP license might be found to be obstructing justice.

I don't believe a thing can obstruct justice as that requires, IMO, a conscious decision and action.

[piasabird]

There are government agencies that use PGP. ACT test score downloads are protected that way. I dont see why the person showed the border agents the contents of the laptop in the first place. Seems like that demand would be illegal. So anything they saw at first might be inadmissable as evidence or reasoning for a search warrant to begin with. However, if someone happened to see him viewing some questionable material as they walked by, that might be admissable as evidence because he was viewing it in a public place.

There are laws about breaking into computer devices without the consent of the owner. Carries up to a 5 year and $50,000.00 fine. This includes wireless snooping as well. There are also laws that state that if you have knowledge of child pronography on a computer, that by law you are required to report it. This is what protects computer maintenance people from the parasites of society.

PGP is an accepted and recognized file security protocol.

If it was me I would have just said that I did not remember the password/key phrase. Never felt the need for encryption myself. However, it might be a good idea for a laptop because they are stolen all the time. Even government laptops with sensitive data have been stolen or misplaced.

Usually in a story like this what they dont tell you in the article is just as important as what they tell you.

[rjfvillarosa]

Originally Posted by piasabird I dont see why the person showed the border agents the contents of the laptop in the first place. Seems like that demand would be illegal. So anything they saw at first might be inadmissable as evidence or reasoning for a search warrant to begin with. However, if someone happened to see him viewing some questionable material as they walked by, that might be admissable as evidence because he was viewing it in a public place.

I was wondering about the circumstances surrounding how they knew the material was there in the first place.
I don't know enough about the law, but surely by the fact that they need to ask him to show them what is on the disk means that they don't have concrete proof of what is there.
To me if they have enough reason to believe that illegal or offensive material is on the laptop and therefore they have confiscated it, then they have just cause to seek a warrant to search the laptop by any means possible and if they don't and therefore the owner is still in possession of the laptop surely by now he will have zero filled it or even tossed the harddrive in the ocean.

[Lespaul20]

Originally Posted by piasabird There are laws about breaking into computer devices without the consent of the owner. Carries up to a 5 year and $50,000.00 fine. This includes wireless snooping as well. There are also laws that state that if you have knowledge of child pronography on a computer, that by law you are required to report it. This is what protects computer maintenance people from the parasites of society.

I'm not a lawyer but are you sure those laws are in place to protect crimnal suspects? I would think that are are to protect law abiding citizens.

I found this. Not much specific detail but a general overview of this kind of issue.

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cyberc...l2002.htm#_II_