Pit Bulls

[SARGE]

I've had it with Pit Bulls and their owners especially. Today I read about 3 of them attacking folks who were minding their own business. My own experiences with that breed are terrible. My neighbor was boarding one that belonged to his brother. The dog literally ate a hole in my wooden fence and attacked my small dog. At the end of that particular day I had half the police force down my street on a quite Sunday afternoon, making me the "bad guy" for making terroristic threats against my neighbor. Another time I was in the front yard with my kids and neighborhood kids, all playing with our cat. From nowhere two Pit Bulls rushed up and literally tore the cat into pieces in front of us all, then just as quickly disappeared down the street. Again, I was the "bad guy" for cruising the streets with my shotgun looking for the Bulls. Try and make sense of that. I called the cops and animal control and both said it wasn't their problem. When I asked what would have happened if the dogs had attacked my kids, I got a flashlight shined into my eyes saying I was merely speculating. Most recently I was walking my Golden Retriever from my truck to the house (on a leash) after our regular morning drive. Hearing alot of screaming, I turned and saw the Pit Bull from across the street racing toward us. The owners never use a leash as they take it to their car. I immediately shielded my dog with my own body and heard the guy yell out, "he won't bite if yours won't". Luckily his dog was still young and only wanted to sniff around, but big enough to inflict damage if he wanted. I was informed however, to take my dog inside so he could make his own dog come back to him. His dog was in attack-mode. Too late did I think to suggest he keep his Bull on a leash, as he does roam the neighborhood at times. I keep reading all the defenses of that breed, but the bottom line is they were bred to be viscious, just as my Golden was bred to be gentle.

[HAL9000]

I'm a firm believer of it's how the owner is raising the dog... I know an owner of two pitbulls... and I had no problem with setting my daughter down when she was quite young to play with them... they were the suckiest animals I have ever seen.. on the opposite end, I have seen people with so called "docile" breed dogs and they were just plain mean SOB's. Most people get pitbulls for "home protection", so they get raised to be mean.

[Blaster3]

first off, rotties & pits were initially bred, that means genetically altered, to be attack animals.
there is absolutely no way anyone can 'keep' them docile, they are 'born' to react at many different 'triggers'. so maybe yours will be 'nice' because of the way you treated it from birth, butt one day something WILL trigger it's bred in instinct to attack, irregardless who commits the 'trigger'. i for one will 'shoot first answer questions later" if one crosses my path.

hey sarge, try to get your town to pass a law similar to this in nyc:
http://www.nyccouncil.info/pdf_files/bills/int0250a.htm

on a side note:
just in case anyone thinks they got problems, you've got to read some of these posts (what people will complain about is simply amazing):
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/117553.html

[juppy]

I have to agree with HAL on this....it's all how you raise the dog. Case in point, my brother's fiancee has a Rottweiler that has the best attitude I've ever seen in a dog, any breed. About the only thing he'll do is lick you to death if you let him. And this is all because he was raised with that goal in mind, and was NOT trained to be a mean attack dog. A dog only knows what it is taught. You teach them to be mean and they'll be mean....you teach them to be docile and they're docile.

She also used to have a Black Labrador that she rescued from a pound. That dog had been kicked in the butt by it's previous owner every time it did something wrong, and sometimes just for being there to be kicked apparently. As a result, that dog had a terrible attitude. Nobody could pet her for over 10 seconds without getting snapped at and you didn't dare try to pet her anywhere lower than her head or front shoulders. Again, the dog was raised in a hostile environment, so it learned to react accordingly to defend itself from being hurt, not because it was genetically altered in any way. You treat a dog that way and they'll learn to defend themselves and *will* turn out mean.

[Blaster3]

the news is full of stories (just google it up) over the last 15 years or so where a family was completely shocked that their rottie/pit just bit the face off their 3 year old (whatever age)," he was such a nice dog with a great temperament" "we don't understand how this happened", "he was such a lovable dog until this happened". doesn't help that kid though, does it?

haven't heard of any german sheppards, poodles, labs, collies, ect. doing similar unprovoked attacks.

point is, you wanna play with fire you will eventually get burned.

remember shoot first, worry about the bad press after.

[HAL9000]

Originally Posted by Blaster3 haven't heard of any german sheppards, poodles, labs, collies, ect. doing similar unprovoked attacks. point is, you wanna play with fire you will eventually get burned. remember shoot first, worry about the bad press after.

You're kidding right? I don't exactly live in a big city and there have been unprovoked attacks here from German Shepards and I myself had a run in with a lab when I was doing delivery work... I force fed him the package and got back in my van.

[juppy]

Yeah, I know....I've heard the stories too. That doesn't mean every single dog in that breed is destined to be a brutal attack mongrel though. For the few that "go off", how many thousands of that same breed DON'T "go off" and are good dogs through their whole lives? You don't hear about those in the news, all you hear about are the few that snap and lose it.

Instability can happen in any species, whether dogs, cats, or even humans. By that standard, does that mean all people are gentically bred to be "bad" too? I mean, after all, we have quite a few murderers, thieves, and rapists in the world, so by your statement I guess that means we'll all be robbing banks or killing someone at some point in our lives, since we're all judged on the actions of the few bad apples in the bunch.

[EzyStvy]

Originally Posted by Blaster3 the news is full of stories (just google it up) over the last 15 years or so where a family was completely shocked that their rottie/pit just bit the face off their 3 year old (whatever age)," he was such a nice dog with a great temperament" "we don't understand how this happened", "he was such a lovable dog until this happened". doesn't help that kid though, does it?

Of course those stories make the news. What about the extremely large number of rottie/pits that have never bitten anyone?

I'd be more afraid of all the Long Islander's carring guns looking for dogs to shoot

[shadowpr]

I have an interesting perspective here, and will have to agree that it has more to do with the dogs upbringing. Not to say that some dog breeds are more inclined to be more aggressive, but a big part will have to do with upbringing.

When I was younger, my Uncle had several dogs, and one was a German Sheppard that was taught to be a guard dog for the house. That dog tried to kill me several times. Granted, since I was young and they locked him up when I came, I did tease the dog, but that is what little kids do sometimes.

On the other end of the spectrum, my step-dad has a corgi and was walking him one night when a pit-bull (I believe) ran out of no where and tried to attacked the corgi. This particular dog had previously attacked my step-dads corgi to the point that the corgi had teeth marks in him. This time, my step-dad pulled out his pistol and said he would shoot the dog. Long story short, step-dad got arrested for that.

Are some dogs dangerous, yes. Should those dogs that like to run on their own, and thus pose a threat be on a leash, yes. Can you blame the dog anymore than you can blame a child for doing what it's parents have taught it and let it get away with, no. Does the dogs bread have the final say in the togs temperament, no.

EDIT: EzyStvy: Nothing wrong with Long Islanders with guns.

[Blaster3]

read this, 71percent of all dog bite fatalities are from pits/rotties, many cities have laws against owning them now:
http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs.htm

serious as a heart attack, i'll empty my glocks clip into one if it just turns & looks the slightest bit threatening (in my opinion) at me or one of my family.

EDIT: i don't go lookin for 'it', butt i'm 'packin' just in case.

[Jester]

My wife worked at an emergency vet in South Carolina before we moved to Chicago. I also owned a Shar-pei (another dog bread to be an attack dog). There are several pits, rots, dobbies, and chows in my current neighborhood so here is my perspective.

Vets, Vet Assistants, and Vet Techs will agree. It is all in the training and upbringing. If you decide to buy a fighting breed such as a Sharp, Dobbie, Rot, Shepard, Pit, American Bull, ect then you MUST be familiar with the breed, get it when it is no more than 6 weeks old, and have the time and patience to SUPER train.

There is no police K-9 in the world that will attack unporvoked or un commanded. The same goes with any breed.

Any dog regardless of genetic disposition can be trained beyond instinct. The problem exists when owners abuse, or do not train.

My Shar-pei was a stubborn SOB. He did not like most other dogs, but I was able to train him to sit and stay and ignore. He was even able to get along and play nice with the nieghbors chow, and my spitz. Unfortunatly he had epilepsy, that even medicated, caused enough brain damage that he became frightful, and didn't know where he was. No ammount of training is going to stop a medical issue, so we had to put him to sleep.

The "dangerous dog" owners in my nieghborhood want them as a status symbol and are not responsible dog owners. These are the dogs that get out and attack people. The dangerous breeds have gotten bad press because of stupid owners.

I am sorry if you think that every single qoute dangersous breed is in fact a danger to everyone, but you are just flat out wrong. There is an equal amount of supported research that contradicts every news article and research document that you have posted.

Again it is all in the training, and all in the owner. Dogs are animals. They will act as such unless trained to obey. Any dog that comse up on a bigger human will back down if you know how to attack and restrain properly. I had a 120lb rot try and attack my spitz and all i had to do was kick the rot in the chest and then scruff him. I have also trained my dog to follow all kinds of commands for all sorts of situations. I just say home and he will go straight there. His protection instinct over riden with a command. My wife knows if the dog shows up without me to call me.

If humans are going to own animals they need to be prepared. They need to know how to train, restrain, and nurture. The dog sees itself as part of your "pack". Case in point we just had our son. The entire time my wife was pregnant the spitz was right by her side. When the baby was born the dog moved to the babies side. The dog watches the kid and if the baby is crying excessively our dog will come investigate and wine and murmer until we fix it. It's pretty entertaining.

[Blaster3]

the point here is that given the pits/rotties reputation & the fact that if it does attack, they 'clamp down' & WILL go for the 'kill'.

scenerio: if i'm ever put in a situation where me/my family are confronted by a pit/rottie, i am not about to speculate on whether or not it was 'raised' properly. the only thing i'll be thinkin of is pumping rounds into 'em , absolutely no hesitation.

just ask Siegfried & Roy, whichever is still alive, whether to trust a well trained/behaved animal whose natural instinct is to 'kill'.

BTW: 25+ years of 'packin' & i'm proud to say that i've never had to harm/putdown an animal of the canine type...

[EzyStvy]

ALL dogs are cousins of the WOLF. The only difference about pitts and rotties are their size.

If little ol Chihuahuas weighed 100+ pounds they'd be in the same catagory who's behavior is determined by their owners

[SARGE]

I agree to a point that how all dogs are treated has influence. Just as a kid turns out mean if he's abused regularly. My point is that some breeds are bred to be fighters - it's in their genes and yes, there are gentle ones out there but can be unpredictable and do cause alot of damage which we then read about. Goldens are bred to be gentle which is why most vets will suggest one if you have kids. Am sure they can also turn out mean but one would have to work at mistreating one to get that. It's not their instinct to harm as is above mentioned breed in my original post. Why else would they be called "pit bulls"?.

A bud is a postman and his route has many bulls chained up to front porch as guard dogs. It works because they have to go to the post office to get their mail. And they are the ones we read about after they get loose. The debate will always be there but it starts with the breed of dog and their propensity to attack.

[jdeb]

i know a family that eat those animals... needless to say I do not like them or the dogs they consume.

[raftero]

blaster said "if i'm ever put in a situation where me/my family are confronted by a pit/rottie, i am not about to speculate on whether or not it was 'raised' properly. the only thing i'll be thinkin of is pumping rounds into 'em , absolutely no hesitation."
i agree BUT not just a pit/rottie, any animal -buck sheep, bull, wolf or human would fit in the shoot category. but i have owned several pits and german sheppards i have never had any that were vicious to humans, most of the Sheppards were protective but easy to handle, i agree that any dog might be triggered into harming someone when this happens put it down, and i think maybe pits maybe can be triggered more often than some other breeds, but don't lump all pits in the vicious class.

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by SARGE I agree to a point that how all dogs are treated has influence. Just as a kid turns out mean if he's abused regularly. My point is that some breeds are bred to be fighters - it's in their genes and yes, there are gentle ones out there but can be unpredictable and do cause alot of damage which we then read about.

I agree with you.. it's in their genes. So no matter what kind of "good" training a dog such as a pitbull gets they can still be triggered to do what they were bred to do. Just like the chimp we recently heard about in the news. He was a wild animal raised jus tlike a child in a loving environment. The chimp was loving and gentle all his life and then one day he is triggered to commit a violent attack upon a human by literally ripping her apart.

Sarge, I'm having similar problems with my neighbors who own pitbuls and let them run loose. Instead of using a gun, I shoot them with my camera as they crap on my lawn and run loose terrorizing the neighborhood. I record every incident by documenting as much detail as I can with dates, time of occurance, descriptions and photos. What I'm doing is building a case for the attack on the real source of my problems which is the dog's owner. My battle will be held in court. Fortunately for me, my neighbors dogs don't last long because I live on a road with lots of traffic and the unleashed dogs get hit by cars and die. So even though the dogs are dead I still have my evidence. Now he has a new pitbull puppy and I'm making my first moves to notify in writing, all people who share in the responsibility of either causing the problem or solving the problem. Once everyone from the dog's owner to the police to the town officials realize that they are all at risk financially by these dogs running loose, I should get the action required to solve this problem. If not, then I'm protecting my own self if the worse ever happens and I'm forced to sue everyone to recover my damages.

My suggestion is to you is to begin researching to find out what the laws are in your town in relation to dogs and the owners responsibilities. Find out what your rights are. Then work intelligently and logically and not emotionally. Work like a detective and a lawyer and begin documenting your case. Prepare to attack the owners of these dogs and bring them to court where you can hit them hard where it counts, in their wallet! Then if anyone or any other animal is harmed by their dogs due to the owner's negligence, you may have the evidence and wisdom to convict them and put them in jail. Don't fight with the police or town officials. Go talk to them, befriend them and get them to see your point of view.

Good luck!

---pete---

[Lespaul20]

Petef56 - how can you compare a wild animal to a domesticated animal? Dogs have been domesticated long before captive breeding. Comparing an animal who is one generation from defend against giant kittens to one that's been relying on humans for years isn't really comparing apples to apples.

The animals behavior is determined by the owner who raised the animal. Irresponsible of dogs owner is always underplayed versus the breed in sensationalized stories about dog attacks. Nobody cares if a dog was around kid for 15 years of their life and harm a soul. Like ezy said, the only reason behavior comes into plays is size. I'm sure there are stories of ankle bitters bit more than just an ankle of a child.

This issues has many parallels to guns and gun violence.

A majority of murders that take place are because of guns. With some of the logic here, we should ban the guns that you plan killing the dogs with. We all know how well banning things always works out, it's just a band-aid to cover up the true root of the problem.

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by Lespaul20 Petef56 - how can you compare a wild animal to a domesticated animal? Dogs have been domesticated long before captive breeding. Comparing an animal who is one generation from defend against giant kittens to one that's been relying on humans for years isn't really comparing apples to apples.

I do understand your point, but even if we are comparing two animals that are so far apart on the evolutionary scale, they are still animals that can act in a kind and gentle way as a result of their environment and training and then suddenly be triggered to resort back to their most basic violent animal instincts.

That basic fact of nature is not normally a problem if your pet is gold fish or a domestic house cat, or a small dog because they don't have the power to do much damage, but when the animal has more power than a human and the ability to think or react in an aggressive violent manner, there is potential for great danger. Some of the key factors of how dangerous an animal can be have to do with the breed's natural disposition or level of aggression, their size and their strength.

With all that said, a Pit Bull is a much different animal and a higher risk of danger than a Collie due to the dramatic difference in strength and level of agression they are capable of.

---pete---

[Blaster3]

Originally Posted by Petef56 I do understand your point, but even if we are comparing two animals that are so far apart on the evolutionary scale, they are still animals that can act in a kind and gentle way as a result of their environment and training and then suddenly be triggered to resort back to their most basic violent animal instincts. That basic fact of nature is not normally a problem if your pet is gold fish or a domestic house cat, or a small dog because they don't have the power to do much damage, but when the animal has more power than a human and the ability to think or react in an aggressive violent manner, there is potential for great danger. Some of the key factors of how dangerous an animal can be have to do with the breed's natural disposition or level of aggression, their size and their strength. With all that said, a Pit Bull is a much different animal and a higher risk of danger than a Collie due to the dramatic difference in strength and level of agression they are capable of. ---pete---

exactly right, pete.

BTW: how many of you pit/rottie owners put them in a crate/cage. why? you must fear them for one reason or another otherwise you would not have to crate them.
the breed are natural born killers... thats why, so even you'll do whats necessary to protect yourselves.

in the US there are 800,000 dog attacks annually, of which 71 percent are by pits/rotties.
considering they only make up about 5 percent of the total dog population, that's enuff evidence for me to conclude that they should all be exterminated.
http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs.htm

[shadowpr]

Originally Posted by Blaster3 exactly right, pete. BTW: how many of you pit/rottie owners put them in a crate/cage. why? you must fear them for one reason or another otherwise you would not have to crate them. the breed are natural born killers... thats why, so even you'll do whats necessary to protect yourselves. in the US there are 800,000 dog attacks annually, of which 71 percent are by pits/rotties. considering they only make up about 5 percent of the total dog population, that's enuff evidence for me to conclude that they should all be exterminated. http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs.htm

Your logic is flawed.

How many dog attacks are not reported because the dog doesn't inflict serious damage? I know I've been bitten by smaller dogs, but never felt the need to report anything.

And to say that just because 71% of the reported attacks are cause by a small portion is like saying a high % of a certain crime is caused by one race, so we should kill all of them to avoid problems.

Let us not forget that people are animals too. We just like to think of ourselves as more evolved then other species, and that the greatest threat to people is still other people.

I'm just playing devils advocate here, but it's so that statements about killing an entire species can be seen for what it is, which is absurd.

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by Blaster3 http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs.htm

Thanks for the link above. I'm now reading the ordinances at the
link below to see if any could be adopted by my town.

http://www.dogsbite.org/legislating-dogs-colorado.htm

---pete---

[David M]

The fact is, all dogs have been selectively bred over hundreds of years and for thousands of generations to have not just different physical characteristics but to have different mental characteristics. The fact is, pit bull terriers have been bred over hundreds of years to have the mental characteristics to fight. You dont just breed out those mental characteristics in a few generations. You also dont change those mental characteristics by treating these dogs as ordinary house pets. Would you keep a lion in the house if it is only a couple generations away from being an animal that lived on the Savana taking down zebra? Same with pitbulls...they are only a few generations away from being all out fighting dogs..and thats not something you can remove by changing the animals environment. Thats is a bred in personality characteristic of that breed that cannot be changed in a few generations by selective breeding.

Sure, a pit bull could be the sweetest family pet for years until one day when that fighting characteristic that has been bred into them decides to shred the leg of your neighbors four year old daughter.

It is completely irresponsible to get an aggressive fighting dog that was never bred to be a family pet.

[Blaster3]

Originally Posted by shadowpr Your logic is flawed. How many dog attacks are not reported because the dog doesn't inflict serious damage? I know I've been bitten by smaller dogs, but never felt the need to report anything. And to say that just because 71% of the reported attacks are cause by a small portion is like saying a high % of a certain crime is caused by one race, so we should kill all of them to avoid problems. Let us not forget that people are animals too. We just like to think of ourselves as more evolved then other species, and that the greatest threat to people is still other people. I'm just playing devils advocate here, but it's so that statements about killing an entire species can be seen for what it is, which is absurd.

not for nothing, butt 71 percent of 800,000 attacks is not a small percentage, even if you concede that there are far more attacks than the reported 800,000 you'd have to logically conclude that there's a percentage of those unreported attacks committed by pits/rotties most likely in the high end of that percentage as well...

facts in evidence clearly show that these breeds should not be openly 'trusted'.

true, i've overstated my position when i said they should be exterminated (not the case).

what i do believe, however, is that those breeds (along with all other species that are dangerous to society as a whole) should not allowed to be 'owned' by just anyone in the general public.

remember, it's not how you're pet behaves around you that concerns me, it's the fact that you bring your pet out into public areas where others are put at 'risk' for no legitimate reason.
you have no right to put others in potential jeopardy, knowing the risks & reputations of those type animals.

it's been my experience that most individuals that own those type animals only do so because they think it makes them look tough/cool to outsiders, most likely because they're lacking in self esteem or some other physiological condition... imo

[not important]

Cesar Millan (The Dog Whisperer) says there are no bad dogs...only bad owners.

[shadowpr]

I think we come to the conclusion that it's the people that are responsible, and that ressonable people will keep their dogs on a leash. Those same people are the ones that would also know enough to train their dogs correctly.

It is usually the ones that don't know what they are doing that shouldn't have dogs to begin with, let alone dogs like pit bulls. It does take a certain person to know how to have a pit bull as a pet.

I think that is the problem that we can all agree on. Even if you feel the breed is evil, under the control of the right responsible person, they would pose little to no threat.

[HAL9000]

Originally Posted by not important Cesar Millan (The Dog Whisperer) says there are no bad dogs...only bad owners.

I've witnessed many shows where he does some phenomenal things with the worst of dogs.

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by shadowpr It is usually the ones that don't know what they are doing that shouldn't have dogs to begin with, let alone dogs like pit bulls. It does take a certain person to know how to have a pit bull as a pet.

I can only speak about the people I know who own pit bulls and
all of them have been extremely irresponsible. One guy I suspected
was actually fighting his dog. The other guy is so irresponsible that
he lets his very young children run loose unattended with the
unleased dogs. Just recently the dog ran into the road, the kid
chased after the dog and almost got hit by a car.

---pete---

[David M]

How many of your typical pit bull owners watch his show? Probably none. How many owners are capable of doing what Caesar does? Absolutely none. How many pitbulls are only few generations away from being fight dogs? All of them.

[juppy]

Originally Posted by shadowpr I think we come to the conclusion that it's the people that are responsible, and that ressonable people will keep their dogs on a leash. Those same people are the ones that would also know enough to train their dogs correctly.

Well said. That rott that I mentioned above is quite happy on a leash. He's just happy to be around anybody really. And he *doesn't* stay in a cage either.....he sleeps in the house, right beside the bed. Besides, it would take an awfully big cage for him, since he's about 130 pounds.