Runaway Prius

[Lespaul20]

As you have probably heard, a higher profile case of the stuck accelerator from a Toyota hppend in California yesterday.

Here is the story if you haven't heard.

So what are you thoughts?

I'm very skeptical of this guy. I don't know why it would take someone over 20 minutes going 80+ MPH to figure out how to stop a car(CHP actually told him what to do).

Conspiracy theory? What's the chances this guy could be bought out by Detroit to give Toyota more bad press? Or setting up for a lawsuit?

Hopefully someone in the media vets this guy because right now I don't trust him.

[HAL9000]

There used to be a TV show years ago called Rescue 911... they had more than one story of some idiot with a stuck accelerator that couldn't figure out how to either turn off the ignition or toss it in neutral... there was even one where the 911 operator didn't think of that.

I heard an interview the guy did this morning and he says give or take a word or too, that he was afraid to turn the car off because he didn't know if it would lock up the wheels, at 90+ mph he thought maybe the car would flip. I heard the 911 call they replayed during the interview, guy sounded pretty freaked out to me but who knows, good acting?

[Strider]

The problem with today's cars is that a lot of them are electronic when it comes acceleration and to me that leads to problems for some people when it comes to not freaking out. I seen a show on either the History Channel or the Discovery Channel (I think it might have been Discovery) were they were saying they could design/make a car that only had a joystick to steer, accelerate the car and stop a car, but they said they (the manufacturers) probably would never do that because most people would be freaked out with a setup like that. Personally I think it would be neat driving like that, but if people can't stop a runaway car they would never be able to grasp something that futuristic looking.

[glc]

Sikes told reporters he didn't go into neutral because he worried the car would flip.

You gotta be kidding........

[juppy]

Originally Posted by glc You gotta be kidding........

Yeah, he actually said that. Saw that part of the interview on the world news the other night. I said the same thing to my family..."Why the heck would it flip by going into neutral??!!". *Maybe* he thought he could go on past neutral and accidently slap it into reverse or something, I don't know.

Until all this started happening, I didn't even know that newer cars don't have an actual throttle cable anymore, but rather a transmitter on the pedal part that relays the signal up to a receiver to control the gas flow (I think that's what Strider was getting at). Maybe I'm thinking shallow again, but to me that just sounds like trouble. I mean, what if the frequency of your transmitter just happens to be fairly close to the frequency some other tower or antenna is broadcasting at? You drive by a radio station or a cell tower and it gives the signal to "floor it".....vrooooooom, off you go. I would *assume* that the frequency would be in some area that's not the same as other common stuff, but lately I'm thinking it's not safe to assume anything anymore.

[glc]

It's not wireless, it's all done through wires. There's a sensor on the pedal mechanism and an electric motor on the throttle. The PCM (powertrain control module - the computer) controls it all, it senses the pedal position (and a lot of other operating parameters) and tells the motor how far to open the throttle, how much fuel to inject and when, and when to fire the spark plugs.

Toyota has a major problem here. Ford's drive by wire defaults to closed throttle. If the PCM senses anything seriously out of whack, it shuts the throttle and pops a warning light on the dash on. It looks like Toyota is defaulting to wide open........

Another issue - the shifter is no longer attached to the transmission - that's all done electrically too. If it doesn't want to go into neutral, it won't. You don't stick a key in a lock cylinder to start the car any more either - if the key fob is in range, all you do is push a button on the dash and it starts. To shut it off, you push the button again and hold it. Guess what happens if the computer ignores the button pressing? You could have a car with a wide open throttle that won't go into neutral OR shut off. Wheeeee!!!!!!!!!! Next step is the electric power steering doing its own thing - that's very possible, ever see the Lexus commercial with the self-parking car?

I'll stick with my manual transmission truck with a real throttle cable and ignition key, thank you.

[David M]

Hmmmm.... so your safety is completely dependent on a computer not screwing up. Hah!

Boeing seems to have it right with their fly by wire systems, but then their systems have built in redundancies. Why can't Toyota get it right? I'm with George on this. I will take a mechanical linkage to the brakes, throttle and steering any day.

[XenaWP]

A woman I work with (who has an affected vehicle) had no idea that putting the vehicle into neutral would pretty much end any acceleration problems. I had to bite my tongue. She's a nice lady, but not very bright. Now, I'm pretty dumb when it comes to cars, but I know that they dont' call it "neutral" for nothing .... lol

Anyway, I can see a middle aged woman, with no real understanding of cars, not knowing what to do. But a guy? Aren't guys born with car knowledge?

[EzyStvy]

Originally Posted by XenaWP Aren't guys born with car knowledge?

Yeppers. Since you ladies were born to cook n clean - we work on cars

[XenaWP]

Hah. Touché.

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by juppy Until all this started happening, I didn't even know that newer cars don't have an actual throttle cable anymore, but rather a transmitter on the pedal part that relays the signal up to receiver to control the gas flow (I think that's what Strider was getting at). Maybe I'm thinking shallow again, but to me that just sounds like trouble.

I agree, it sure invites trouble to go with anything but a simple mechanical throttle cable. This is just one example how the modern automobile is over-engineered. To my way of thinking, the mechanical throttle cable is the most reliable due to the minimal qty of parts and the minimal chance of failure on any of those parts.

On the other hand, with an over-engineered throttle system like Toyota's you have many parts that can possibly fail. Toyota is now suffering from this mistake and they deserve to suffer unless their engineers could show a worse case failure analysis where no matter which part failed, it could never go full throttle. Obviously they can't prove such a thing which is why they deserve all the bad press and lawsuits for having developed such an over-engineered and unreliable throttle system.

---pete---

[EzyStvy]

Right on brother.

I think the home remote control for the tv can be directly related to Obesity which in turn will cause the world to come to an end.

Talking about over-engineered...I mean - just how hard is it to reach over and turn a knob to change channels

/end of rant

[Strider]

Originally Posted by EzyStvy Right on brother. Talking about over-engineered...I mean - just how hard is it to reach over and turn a knob to change channels /end of rant

I think children today would look at you crazy if you said that you used to change channels by turning a knob.

[David M]

I get ticked off when I cannot find the remote because I watch TV to relax, not to exercise. Anyone who thinks not having a remote while watching TV is in any way exercise is fooling themselves. Not having a remote is probably a little healthier than doing beer curls.

[EzyStvy]

Walking four feet back n forth across the room is by far better for you then sitting in a chair And anyone that can't find their remote shouldn't be watching TV Course that's easy for me to say since I only share my remote with my kat and she's in my lap when she uses is.

[HAL9000]

Who wants to stand a foot from a big screen TV and scan 200 channels for something on? Far easier to view sitting in the chair. As for the getting up being exercise.... seriously... how many calories burned over sitting... 1/2... maybe 1... at 3600 calories for a pound of fat, do you REALLY think it would make any difference?

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by EzyStvy I think the home remote control for the tv can be directly related to Obesity which in turn will cause the world to come to an end. Talking about over-engineered...I mean - just how hard is it to reach over and turn a knob to change channels /end of rant

Are you serious? Although I believe the Toyota throttle system is over-engineered and unreliable, I believe the TV remote is one of the better inventions of our time. I grew up with non-remote mechanical TV tuners and they were horrible to use and unreliable. The modern hand held remote is an example of superior engineering. I think of that every time one of my remotes falls to the ground or goes flying through the air and to the ground after I shake my blanket and the remote still continues to operate perfectly. My remotes are the most reliable and dependable devices ever, so I can't see comparing remotes to the Toyota throttle systems.

When I speak of "over-engineered", I'm referring to a device or system that was originally very simple in design and highly reliable but now redesigned to be overly complex and much less reliable.

---pete---

[juppy]

Originally Posted by glc It's not wireless, it's all done through wires. There's a sensor on the pedal mechanism and an electric motor on the throttle. The PCM (powertrain control module - the computer) controls it all, it senses the pedal position (and a lot of other operating parameters) and tells the motor how far to open the throttle, how much fuel to inject and when, and when to fire the spark plugs.

Hmm....I must've misunderstood the talking head on the news that night then. Or he didn't know what the heck he was reporting himself. One or the other obviously, because your description sounds a lot more logical than his. That's why I couldn't believe that because totally wireless just sounded like an accident waiting to happen.

Originally Posted by HAL9000 Who wants to stand a foot from a big screen TV and scan 200 channels for something on?

But just think of all the exercise you'd get with that, Dave. Say you step back 4 feet to get a good clear view of what's on each channel.....with each channel, stepping 4 feet forward to change it, then 4 feet backward to view.....nah, nothing on that one.....repeat, 4 feet forward, change channel, 4 feet back again. Dude, if you go through all 200 channels.....200 x (4 +4) = 1600 feet you walked. That's over a quarter mile of walking just to find something good to watch.

[EzyStvy]

Originally Posted by Petef56 When I speak of "over-engineered", I'm referring to a device or system that was originally very simple in design and highly reliable but now redesigned to be overly complex and much less reliable.

Guess you've never fought with a spouce over the remote...Being able to beat the other person to the knob on the tv was a "let the best person win" kind of deal...It can't be any simpler then that

Maybe I should have picked on in-door plumbing. The brisk walk to the outhouse was always an adventure.

BUT, back to the linkage....

Assuming for a moment that engineers aren’t stupid and don’t make things up cause they’re bored… I bet the new fangled throttle stuff was designed for a reason(s).

1) less expensive to build – maybe $18 less dollars times 10 million cars
2) less expensive to install
3) overall less weight to the vehicle
4) less weight means better gas mileage
5) less space to store the parts in the parts department

[glc]

It was actually designed to make it possible to comply with ever-tightening emissions and fuel economy standards and still have a drivable vehicle. The throttle response is not linear according to input.

[dbc]

Drive by wire has been around since the early 90's. I saw my first in 1994 when I was working for a grocery chain and we purchased Volvo tractors with the new Detroit diesel series 60 engine. We could program all kinds of perimeters into it, including how fast it would run.

Series 60

[inflames988]

I drive a stick shift, and I have a brain. It's a winning combo - I'll never end up in this situation.

[HAL9000]

Originally Posted by inflames988 I drive a stick shift, and I have a brain. It's a winning combo - I'll never end up in this situation.

Until they get rid of the direct linkages there too. The bus I ride to school is a stick, but the shiter is servo activated. They automatics they have are standards, but a computer and servos handle the shifting functions.

[inflames988]

Originally Posted by HAL9000 Until they get rid of the direct linkages there too. The bus I ride to school is a stick, but the shiter is servo activated. They automatics they have are standards, but a computer and servos handle the shifting functions.

or alternatively, when they stop selling manuals transmissions.
its funny, I am a computer science major and I'd never trust drive-by-wire stuff. If that doesn't tell you something...

Side note: I want to buy a new car when I graduate, but everything I look at is so computerized that it drives me crazy. The car goes nuts and alerts you that it needs maintenance at regular intervals, etc. I'd have to say my least favorite innovation of the past few years is TPMS. I have three sets of wheels/tires for my car, and I manage to be able to keep them at appropriate pressures all on my own...

[David M]

One benefit is that the Prius's reputation for being slow has been blown to hell.

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by inflames988 Side note: I want to buy a new car when I graduate, but everything I look at is so computerized that it drives me crazy. The car goes nuts and alerts you that it needs maintenance at regular intervals, etc.

Sure the idea of buying a late model vehicle seems attractive, but due to such over-engineered modern designs that require such expensive equipment and advanced knowledge to diagnose and repair the vehicle, you lose control over much of the repair and maintenance aspects.

Perhaps you should consider buying an older car and fix it up. That's what I do. I prefer to do all my own mechanic work, so I maintain an older vehicle that is has the technology that I can service myself. Even if you don't do all your own mechanic work, you should be able to find a mechanic that can manage the older technology for a reasonable fee.

---pete---

[Hi Ho]

My Mazda 3, like virtually all cars available today, has a drive by wire system and every time I drive an older car with a mechanical throttle it just feels strange. The drive by wire system provides better gas mileage and a smoother and easier to use cruise control (in my experience) versus a mechanical linkage. Drive by wire also makes electronic stability control and traction control possible.

Drive by wire systems have been around for many years and Toyota seems to be the only one with any problems. I am not concerned about my car. I cannot remember where but I was reading about Toyota simply not even submitting their electronic throttles to a particularly strenuous European test that every other automaker has been subjected too. I can't find any information on this.

I did find a rather interesting article about the whole situation:

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov...le29-2009nov29

As for Sikes, the guy involved in the latest media hyped case in California, it looks like he has plenty of motivation for a lawsuit:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toy...fumento_3.html

Bankrupt and $700,000 in debt...

[Tin]

Priuses must be running Windows

[David M]

I was thinking Linux. Because none of Toyota's programmers seem to be able to figure out how to get it to do what they want it to do.