Women in Combat

[SARGE]

Many years ago I said if women wanted absolute equality, they should be in combat. Just a younger guy at time and never thought would happen, as those things are pretty much buffet style selections when someone wants something. I always believed that as long as someone can pass the same tests, go for it. That goes for my heart surgeons as well, I don't care if they are a pink elephant from Mars or the docs for my kids. I just don't want someone who skated in on a lower standard, just so we can say we are diversified. Maybe in some jobs, but not in military or medical. I've known guys I wouldn't depend on, and couldn't, when it hit the fan. So welcome to combat, ladies, is my response. But don't expect to be treated as a "lady" when you get the notion. Step up and you'll be equal to any combat soldier.

[bob]

I would sue for peace before going to war with any women(s).

[SARGE]

I believe we all want opportunities for all. I know I have that but also know I can never have same abilities as glc or others when it comes to this techno stuff. At one time I was dumb as a bump on a log, but few could beat me in analyzing telco problems whether indoor/outdoor. I trained younger guys and women, some made it and some didn't. In fact, the best were women because they had to try extra hard as they told me, proving themselves crawling thru attics in July, climbing poles in the rain, digging a hole with a shovel when a lot of guys would be bellyaching. I told them if I could ever form my own crew, they would be first. They outworked every youngster I trained. So I ain't no chauvinist guy, just expect the same from everyone. Even moreso in combat.

[quartet-man]

I have mixed feelings with this. One one hand, there are some women who could take some guys. By the same token, women could be taken hostage and raped and impregnated. Ideally, I think that men are supposed to treasure and protect women. I don't mean to be chauvinistic, it isn't that women are less than, just different and like I said, some are tougher than guys. On one hand I do think if they want to and can, go for it, but I don't think that is how it was supposed to be. At the very least, I agree with Sarge in that circumstances like this (and police etc.) the standards need to be there and not adjusted.

[David M]

If they want to be on the front lines does this mean they also have to register with the Selective Service System when they turn 18, like all men do? With privilege comes responsibility does it not?

[rjfvillarosa]

Women not fit enough to fight on the front line, says former female Army Major as US announces historic change of policy | Mail Online

[LawyerRon]

The underlying issue is not so much women wanting to be in front line combat, but the opportunity for promotions up the ladder. I think if one does some reading on this topic, one will see what the real issues are.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by LawyerRon The underlying issue is not so much women wanting to be in front line combat, but the opportunity for promotions up the ladder. I think if one does some reading on this topic, one will see what the real issues are.

Bingo.

Military promotions tend to go to those who have served in combat. It is a struggle to find high(er) ranking members of the military who have not checked the "I've been in combat" box on their resumes.

Look at:

Martin Dempsey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
James Winnefeld Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Carter Ham Commander, U.S. Africa Command
James Mattis Commander, U.S. Central Command
James G. Stavridis Commander, U.S. European Command (USEUCOM) and
Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR)

to name a few. all of them have combat experience.

[jdeb]

I understand that there are other issues to it.

I guess I would have been concerned if a woman was covering my back in a combat situation. Call me sexist but I can not think of any woman that I know (not to say there isn't) that could handle that situation. Additionally, I once carried a 185 lb. soldier on my back a good distance, I have a hard time seeing a woman doing that.

[birddog_61]

Originally Posted by jdeb I understand that there are other issues to it. I guess I would have been concerned if a woman was covering my back in a combat situation. Call me sexist but I can not think of any woman that I know (not to say there isn't) that could handle that situation. Additionally, I once carried a 185 lb. soldier on my back a good distance, I have a hard time seeing a woman doing that.

Bingo
I have no problem with a woman wanting the right to fight for her country, the problem I have is the double standard on which women were allowed to pass when a man would not. It seems that in order to go infantry the standards will be the same for both which is great, however does that mean that we will start to see the standards drop for all just to allow more women in? Infantry is not where you want to start trying to fill quotas, if you do your going to get a lot of people killed.

[David M]

Don't slack off on the physical standards (climbing, lifting and running) and I don't see a problem. If there are women who can meet those standards without dumbing down the requirements then good for them. Combat can be very physical and lowering the standards would be a detriment to the fighting ability of the troops. Also if they don't mind peeing with the men and exposing their bodies on the battlefront then fine, but that's reality in combat. There are no bathrooms with private stalls and separate showers on the battlefront.

[LawyerRon]

Originally Posted by jdeb I understand that there are other issues to it. I guess I would have been concerned if a woman was covering my back in a combat situation. Call me sexist but I can not think of any woman that I know (not to say there isn't) that could handle that situation. Additionally, I once carried a 185 lb. soldier on my back a good distance, I have a hard time seeing a woman doing that.

Maybe most can't carry a 185 man on their back. But can they be a turret gunner in a Humvee protecting a convoy?

Can they drive a truck in a convoy and get blown up by an IED? Women are already doing it.

Plus, not all men can carry that much weight on their back and some men are much more capable than others, same with women.

As the General said, women who want to apply, can, but the STANDARDS will not be reduced or changed.

But again, the issue is not combat, it's advancement. Read Mboss's post, he's got it right.

[EzyStvy]

On the news last night they said that last year there were 1200+ positions for women in "hazardous duty" and only 134 women signed up...

So it's not like there with millions of women signing up for combat duty.

[Panama Red]

Have at it, ladies. I'm just glad my life didn't depend on some girl when I was in Nam. Today's Army ain't nuthin' like when I wore the uniform. Not sayin' it's wrong - just that I wouldn't want ANY part of it.

[trulad]

I was in the Marine Corp during the Korean War and one of the men at the Chosin Resevoir that later became a famous journalist, James Brady, said on this same subject, how they slid naked down a snow bank to get clean after a bowel movement, said he could never imagine a female doing that. That was one of the most brutal times in history. I still hate those bastards and we should have left McArthur finish them off.

[SARGE]

If all this is just to enhance promotions and more money, that's too bad. Military shouldn't be used for social equality as there are real lives on the line. As others have written or implied, including myself, war is hell and combat is a ....I don't care if you're a pink elephant, a straight, a gay, a woman or nationality. Do I have your 6 and can you do the job? And don't tell me to turn my head when you pee. There is a real world outside. I know a few women in my lifetime I'd be proud to fight with and a few guys I couldn't stand the thought.

[jdeb]

Right. I can not imagine my wife driving a knife into a mans neck, cutting his main, and hear him gurgling. There is a certain satisfaction that can not be emotionally connected into saving your own bacon.

[rwest]

Sarge your last post really summed it all up. I agree whole heatedly.

Bottom line, if they can hack it on our terms, go ahead n let'em. I'd rather have a girl I know can handle it than some two bit punk with no iron in thier gut next to me.

BTW standards for guys has dropped drastically too. I remember in my basic training, the officer said the drill instructor was not allowed to touch us or call us any other name than 'our own' or 'soldier'. Two days later I learned how wrong he was... Thrown face down in the dirt, it was explicitly explained to me as I was 'helped down' with the first few of my fifty pushups 'I owed him'.

I suspect that's not the case today.



Jdeb, I doubt your wife would even consider going into combat. Seriously any woman who considers combat training is probably not the the marrying kind anyway. Or maybe i should say, I dont wanna marry Lorna the three time, record holding, alligator wrestling champ!! But I''ll sure fight next to her..,just leave the alligators at home!

[birddog_61]

Originally Posted by rwest BTW standards for guys has dropped drastically too. I remember in my basic training, the officer said the drill instructor was not allowed to touch us or call us any other name than 'our own' or 'soldier'. Two days later I learned how wrong he was... Thrown face down in the dirt, it was explicitly explained to me as I was 'helped down' with the first few of my fifty pushups 'I owed him'. I suspect that's not the case today.

You would suspect correct, the Marine Corps is the toughest basic left and not anything like it was when my father went through. Some of my buddies that went the Army rout told me they got a time out card and if things were getting too stressful for them they could hand it to the DI and he couldn't even talk to them for 5min. At least they didn't have that in the Corps, although they weren't allowed to punch you these days. The only time it gets physical now is when going through the special schools, good buddy of mine in scout sniper training got his jaw broke during interrogation training and it wasn't exactly and accident.

[quartet-man]

Let me preface this by saying from the sound of it, I couldn't have hacked the services in my best days from the sound of it. However, in the selective service we should get the best of the best or at least those who want to be there. So, it seems sort of silly to me to have time out cards and such in that this is supposed to be training and preparation for real combat. There is evil in the world and if they were to become say p.o.w. like McCain, there will be no time out cards. I'm not sure how closely the Geneva Convention would be followed. Today people seem afraid that people are going to have their "feelings hurt" or "personalities squashed" etc. Although I feel we should treat people as we want to be treated, things have gone to the excess and we have a bunch of spoiled, entitled people who feel the world owes them something and that they should never be corrected, challenged, etc. To top it off, with all of the things we have, we have become dependent on them and soft. Kids can't figure without a calculator, we have become so dependent on the internet, tools and so forth that even if there were backup plans to compensate for their being gone, people no longer know or remember how. We have had such conveniences that we have gotten soft and lazy.

[SARGE]

I've always wondered and laughed when thinking what would have happened if we had waved "time out"cards at Con Thien and Khe Sanh. Am sure the bad guys would have taken a coffee break.

[David M]

Originally Posted by SARGE I've always wondered and laughed when thinking what would have happened if we had waved "time out"cards at Con Thien and Khe Sanh. Am sure the bad guys would have taken a coffee break.

There is an interesting story about trench warfare in WW1, the calling of a cease fire and individuals walking over to the enemy for Christmas. Not that this has anything to do with what the US Army does now.

Christmas truce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[SARGE]

Originally Posted by David M There is an interesting story about trench warfare in WW1, the calling of a cease fire and individuals walking over to the enemy for Christmas. Not that this has anything to do with what the US Army does now. Christmas truce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That seems far fetched but suppose it could happen. Me and a few others here could attest that Christmas cease fires were a joke, only because our side abided by them.

[birddog_61]

Originally Posted by SARGE That seems far fetched but suppose it could happen. Me and a few others here could attest that Christmas cease fires were a joke, only because our side abided by them.

Ya that was a mess.

[mbossman2]

Originally Posted by SARGE That seems far fetched but suppose it could happen. Me and a few others here could attest that Christmas cease fires were a joke, only because our side abided by them.

WWI, as the war dragged on in static trench warfare, was fought under different rules. the Christmas Truce was (on at least one occasion) no joke.

[quartet-man]

Here is a post and follow up comments all from a friend of mine's nephew. Some things I had thought of, and others I hadn't since I have never been in the service:

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I am not in the Infantry, but I am in a combat MOS that currently does not allow women. I could not imagine having women in our unit, and I don't think it is a good idea. Quite frankly, we are very happy that there are no females with us, and it is mentioned a lot. I do not doubt for a second that women can do our job (in some cases better), although I am sure there are jobs that that argument could apply to. I simply want people to know some daily activities that I don't think women will find accommodations for.

In our job, we spend entire days straight in a truck. If you think women should sit in a truck with 3-5 men for 36+ hours, i dare you to try it. some trucks we use only have 2 people in them... you want a 20 year old man and woman to spend 36+ hours in a truck alone together? In our situation, privacy is not even considered. When you gotta go #1, you grab a Gatorade bottle and stand up. If you have to #2, you sit on a field toilet, outside, and go into a bag. If you expect women to do these things, you are insane. If you suggest accommodations, I challenge you to invent privacy curtains for the insides of the trucks, and a way for women to pee without leaving the vehicle.

Any men who still think this can work, should try to think back to their days in the high school locker room. Boys walk around naked, make crude jokes, and talk about girls. If you think that men grow out of that, you are naive. If you think that the introduction of women to the group would stop men from doing these things, you are ignorant. I don't think that they would make it through a single mission without sexual harassment issues. Additionally, imagine being away from your wife/girlfriend for 6/9/12 months... sound stressful? Now imagine spending a week in a truck with a female "battle buddy", then talking to your wife/girlfriend... sounds horrible. This dynamic will cause additional stress for military spouses of both gender, and I don't think we need any more suicides, do we?

Any women who think these aforementioned points are non-issues, i suggest you drive your personal vehicle at least 8 hours straight, stopping only to poo into a bag on the side of the road (#1 is done inside the vehicle). Then, hide in a locker in your local high school's boy's locker room after a football practice. If you still think this is a good idea, you may want to see a shrink.

Although women often argue for equality, I see a theme in the inclusion of females in the military as a whole. "Together but Unequal" has become the ideology behind much of the life of a female soldier. If women truly wanted equality, they would fight for it in every aspect; they would hate being held to a lower standard of Physical Training, they would want to be included in the Selective Service, and they wouldn't accept special treatment for medical conditions, even ones that are biologically specific to women. These are obviously not the only ways that women are treated differently within the military, but they are obvious and commonly encountered issues.

While the phrase "Separate but Equal" has a bad reputation in American history, I think it is the only way for women to be included without creating the problems that will inevitably come with direct integration. I understand and agree with their desire to want to help their country first-hand, and do the same jobs that men do. I don't care if women are out there riding in trucks, peeing in bottles, and pooping in bags... they just shouldn't do it right next to guys.
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We don't even setup tents... most of us sleep in our trucks! last mission, I spent 2 nights in a row in a two-person vehicle (Tandem Husky), with a fellow soldier just inches from me (admittedly, we pretty much cuddled). Not a place for a female. Would we have to force everyone to sleep in tents (separately), even though they are colder than the trucks, just to be fair? you can't let only men, or only women stay in the truck... and i don't think together is an option.
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I know there were females, from various units, at Fort Hunter Liggett... were they all together in their own "female tent"? How does the separation, of living quarters alone, impact unit comradery? If you only see your battle-buddies from sun-up to sun-down... you dont spend time watching movies, or playing games together... you just work together. then you spend a week in a truck together...?! come on! a single female in our platoon would ruin this deployment.
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i think that placing a female in a truck, with men, on a multi-day route clearance mission is directly contradictory to the ban on entering eachother's barracks. I think that at-least a platoon of females would be okay within any route clearance company, although it cuts down on the possibilities of cross-leveling soldiers when a platoon is down a couple soldiers. you could never drop one female into a platoon of males, or vice versa. I think, in order to be in a combat engineer route clearance package, they would need their own platoon, or even company.
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[David M]

Excellent points Terry! Men and women are not the same in many ways and those differences can be potential problems for the effectiveness of the military. There are a lot of social issues which cannot be ignored because they do make a difference. Women need to play a part of the military, as they do so well now, but should never be put in a role where it is a detriment to the militaries ability to fight.

[bob]

Women in the Israel Defense Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[David M]

Ok, I just read the Wiki. How can it be that if all women are required to serve that only 33% of the IDF are women? 51% are officers which means that the enlisted women would have to be somewhere around 50%. Unless of course Israel has a huge shortage of women in its population, which is not true.

[bob]

IDF - Israel Defense Forces