I just finished reading Lord Of The Rings books. My opinion is here

[calmius]

WARNING SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS ARE BELOW!!!! BE WARNED!!!!















Yesterday evening I finally sat down and finished reading last five pages of J.R.R Tokiens The Lord Of The Rings (The Return Of The King). I have to admit that I truly enjoyed this fantasy masterpiece. Throughout the 3 books, I have been fully immersed in the world of fantasy and felt the emotions of the characters as they struggled to survive through danger's of the Middle Earth. My favorite books of the three was the first one The Fellowship Of The Rings, but I enjoyed the other two as well. What made me like the first one better is probably that there were too many ambiguous battles in the 2nd and 3rd books. The language, although readable, was too difficult to understand sometimes. It looked like Tolkien used many words from British slang of his time, or just old British. I know he was a professor of English language and English mythology or something, so that's understandable. It gave the book that "ancient" feel.
Well, it is not fun if I start to describe the story line all over so I 'll just say what I thought of the ending of the book.
The ending seemed to be very anti-climatic for me. It was very intriguing to find out that Frodo was unable to resist the power of the ring and refused to throw it into the lava of Mount Doom, and when Gollum basically fell in there with the ring by accident. That was cool. I felt sorry to see Gollum die. I felt very sorry for him as I learned his story. I wanted Smeagol to take over after the ring was destroyed. Another thing that slightly disappointed me was that there was no direct confrontation or dialogue with the Dark Lord Sauron. He was talked about all the time, but there was no dialogue with him, and we don't even know what he looked like. Saruman was really interesting though. I see I start to go back again, let me get to the point.
I started to really get mad in the end, because after the main evil has been defeated I had to read on to the end about how the hobbits were going home and see that something wasn't right at the Shire with the Ruffians, but then I was rewarded when I found out that Saruman was there before them. Saruman must be my favorite evil guy in the whole book. It's interesting to see how cruel Saruman was in the end of the book as he tried to kill Frodo with a dagger. But the funniest part was probably when his throat was cut by his pet Wormtongue. Once again I felt sorry for Wormtongue, just like I was sorry for Gollum. I don't think they should have killed Wormtongue as he attempted to flee.
The most disturbing aspect of the anti-climatic ending of the Lord Of The Rings is probably how all the magical and mysterious characters are leaving the Middle Earth. Gandalf explained to Strider in the end that "he is leaving" "third age is over" blah blah blah. To me it all looked like "that's it, there is no more magic, there is no more adventure, it's over". As if Gandalf's talk with Strider wasn't enough, in the end I read about Sam and Frodo encounter a party of Elves and their king with Lady Galadriel. It really saddened me when Frodo told Sam that he and Bilbo had to leave somewhere to "Havens" , somewhere away from Middle Earth. It's not BAD, it's just very sad. I think I felt like Sam in the end. And the worst part for me was that I don't know where are the elves, Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo are going. Is it like they're going to another dimension? Another realm? or another land? Are they ever going to come back? Anyway, don't misunderstand me, I really liked the book, but the yesterday, when I finished the book, was to me the day the magic died.


Tell me, have you felt like I did when you finished the books?

[Sauron]

It took Tokien over 10 years for those books. Give him a break. Getting kinda tired I would think. Anyway, my favorite evil guy was Sauron (thats why my name is...heh) I found Saruman, Gollum, Wormtongue and a few others followers, traitors, and toadys. I think the books were absoulutely brilliant. There has never been another series like them. Many ask me how I felt about the Harry Potter. Told them I feel they have a long way to go before they even deserve consideration. I think some wizards stayed behind. I think a lot of them left was because : they wanted to retire, lot of work, wanted to rest before they died. I wish someone could have continued the books. But no one has ever had the same imagination as J.R.R did The first movie was awesome. Can't wait for the others. So I give the books the highest score possible. And if the movies follow, they get the same.

[coolbeans]

I've read those books about 50 times, love it.

Suaron was kind of dumb, the greatest evil and he doesn't do anything. Still makes me sad when everyone splits up to.

Another good book from Tolkein is the prequel to the trilogy called The Hobbit, tells the story of Bilbo and how he discovered the one ring. Like that one even more than the trilogy.

[Paul Victorey]

Well, Sauron does a lot, he launches a huge army against Gondor that would have conquered the whole of Middle-Earth had the ring not been destroyed.

Wizards left because wizards were never part of the original plan of things -- they were sent solely to combat Sauron, with him dead beyond resurrection, their purpose was fulfilled.

A lot of things make more sense if you read the Simarillion. It's essentially the entire history of the world before the war of the rings and the end of the third age.

I'll summarize that book below, if you desire, as many find this a hard read, though I enjoy it much. (SPOILERS and very long)




















OK, to understand the books, you need to understand Tolkien's mythology, which actually is very close to judeochristian mythology.

In the beginning, there was Eru (= God). He creates the Vala (=Archangels) and Maia (= Angels), together they all create the world, and many of the Vala and Maia are sent to the world to guard it, and to prepare for the coming of the Children of Eru, the elves and men.

However, there is one among the Vala, one of the most powerful, who becomes evil. He resents the fact that Eru alone holds the power to create things, and he seeks to twist and corrupt creation to his own will. His name is Melkor, though he is later named Morgoth by the elves. He seduces a number of the Maia (the angels) and they follow him. Sauron is one of these Maia, the most powerful who followed Morgoth. The Balrogs are also Maia.

Morgoth wars with the rest of the Vala, and the battle is endless. In the end, the Vala create a stronghold for themselves on the island later called Valinor, and they create two trees which glow from within with a holy light. Middle-earth, meanwhile, is in darkness save for the stars, as the sun and moon do not yet exist.

The elves awaken during this time, which is why they love Varda best among the Vala (they call her Elbereth), because she made the stars for them. However, the Vala fear for the safety of the elves, as Morgoth would like nothing more than to corrupt them into his service (he is partially successful, the orcs are elves who were corrupted by torture and dark magics).

So the Vala bring some of the elves (those that are willing to make the journey; they later become known as High Elves) to Valinor. One of the elves, Feanor, creates three jewels (the Silmarils) in which he stores the light of the two trees.

Lots of stuff happens here, but in the end, Morgoth enters Valinor, kills the two trees, steals the Silmarils, and flees to Middle-Earth. Feanor and his sons swear a terrible oath to reclaim the jewels. They murder their cousins, the sea-elves, and steal their ships to return to Middle-Earth. The Vala are outraged at the Kinslaying, and they exile the elves who follow Feanor (the Noldor), and make it impossible to reach Valinor by ship anymore.

The wars between Morgoth and the elves go on for a very long time, humans awaken and take sides, etc.

Eventually, Earandil the Half-Elven, the greatest mariner ever, with a Silmaril on the prow of his ship, crosses the seas to Valinor (the only one to be able to navigate those seas during the time Valinor was forbidden to the elves) and pleads for the Vala to intervene. They agree, and they imprison Morgoth forever. Sauron and some of the other servents of Morgoth escape the Vala's wrath, though. The Vala also allow the elves to return to Valinor if they choose.

Sauron deceives some of the elves, and teaches them how to make Rings of Power. He creates the One Ring to enslave all other rings. The Vala do not want to openly interfere in this, but they send five Maia, the Istari, to inspire the other races to fight Sauron. These are the five wizards (Rabadash, Gandalf, Saruman, and the two "Blue" Istari). This is why Gandalf returns -- he was sent for a mission, and once it is done, he leaves the world forever. Of the five, only he (once considered the least of them) stays true to his purpose.

As a note, Bilbo and Frodo are going to the Havens, which is where the elves sail from when they sail to Valinor -- for their actions, they are permitted to enter Valinor, and spend the last years of their lives on that island.

[Sauron]

I read all 5 books. The Simarillion was a very hard book to read. But jeez, Tokien must have been a genius.

[calmius]

I read The Hobbit, and I also have Silmarrilion book. I think I will attempt to read it.

[Nuclear Krusader]

I felt just like you, calmius. I had hoped that Gollum would redeem in the end. I feel sad when he died. In fact I started to feel sad about him when he allied with Shelob, that made me think that he was way beyond redemption.

I admire Tolkien and his work. In fact, his writings influence much of what I'm writing right now. Don't think that my fantasy universe will equal his though.

The Silmarillion is good. Kinda dense at times, but it's a masterpiece. This is the order in which Tolkien's books should be read: Silmarillion, The Hobbit, LoTR trilogy.

[DrZaius]

I've read The Hobbit, and I've started Fellowship now and hope to finish it, and Two Towers, this summer before the next movie comes out. I've just scrolled past everyone's posts, don't want to see the spoilers.

[ssahl]

It's been awhile but I read the hobbit, fellowship, and two towers. When I was in high school and doing the band thing (played guitar) the name of my band was
'Rohirrim' remember the very begining of the hobbit, the riders of Rohirrim?

[davidhooper]

Paul Victorey,
Is all that stuff about the Vala etc in the Simarillion? I never got around to reading that one but it sounds like it completes a few loose ends...

[calmius]

As far as I know Silmarilion was written by Tolkien after the Lord Of The Rings but it is written about the time before the events in LOTR. As you know LOTR is set in what they call the THIRD AGE of middle earth. Silmarillion describes what happens in previous ages. It's described as a very interesting story.

[Cricket]

Hi calmius,

Man, I read those books about 25 years ago and was totally blown away by them. What an amazing piece of work...had me hooked on Fantasy novels for years. Remember, these were written in the 1930's and 40's. You gotta give Tolkien credit for creating such a vivid world for us to enjoy. He really set the standard for fantasy and other genre writers to follow. I've been thinking of reading them again.

I liked Treebeard and the Ents..."thoom thoom thoom...".

Cricket

[calmius]

Another sad part is we didn't get to find out whether the Ents have found their wives.

[Demosthenes]

The Simarillion was Tolkein's way of keeping his history straight and preventing horrible contradictions in his world. It is a very boring read, but he never meant it to be a readable novel.

Respectfully,

Demosthenes

[Paul Victorey]

Funny, I find the Silmarillion a bit dense, but never boring. Frankly, it was a lot more entertaining and interesting than many "classical" literature works (The Iliad comes to mind). The Silmarillion is more or less a collection of short stories primarily related to the First Age of the world.

There are three ages of the world discussed in Tolkien's works (the fourth age begins after the LOTR):

* First age was from the creation of the world until the defeat and exile of Morgoth.

* Second age lasts until Sauron is defeated by the Last Alliance and loses the One Ring.

* Third age lasts until the destruction of the One Ring.

The book entitled the "Silmarillion" is actually a book plus three (or was it four?) short other works. The copy will have, in this order:

Ainulindalë - The creation of the world.

Valaquenta - About the Vala and Maia.

Quenta Silmarillion - The main book, it's a collection of stories about the heros and villians of elven legend. Takes place entirely in the First Age.

Akallabêth - The story of the rise and fall of Numenor, the greatest of the human kingdoms, founded by Elrond's brother Elros, and from which the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor spring. Takes place in the Second Age.

There may be a fifth work in the book, I seem to recall something entitled "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age", but I don't recall if that was from the Silmarillion, though I think it was. I don't have either of my copies of the book handy, but I'll look it up when I find a copy.

[Nuclear Krusader]

Originally posted by Paul Victorey There may be a fifth work in the book, I seem to recall something entitled "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age", but I don't recall if that was from the Silmarillion, though I think it was. I don't have either of my copies of the book handy, but I'll look it up when I find a copy.

It was indeed. It tells the plot of the LoTR trilogy.

[troysvihl]

Oh my god Paul, you're such a nerd! Back in middle-school my friends and I learned the elf and dwarf runes and would use it all the time. So that pretty much makes me a nerd too.

As a note, Bilbo and Frodo are going to the Havens, which is where the elves sail from when they sail to Valinor -- for their actions, they are permitted to enter Valinor, and spend the last years of their lives on that island.

I've read them a few times, and I seem to remember something about people not dying in Valinor. (Something about death not being able to touch anyone on that island?)

And don't forget Sam eventually winds up in Valinor after his wife dies. If memory serves me, he went with Gimli and Gimli's elf-friend. (I forget the name at the moment)

[Paul Victorey]

No, Tolkien was pretty clear on the fact that the elves do not die on Valinor because they never die. He says in a few places that even the Vala do not have the power to keep men's souls in the world. The Numenoreans believed they could attain immortality there, but they could not.

Hobbits are presumably a derivative of the human race, so the Vala should not be able to prevent their death, although they could perhaps give them longer and healthier life.

[TimPoet]

Death was called the gift of man by Tolkien.
Trivia question:
Why didn't Tolkien's elves die?

[Nuclear Krusader]

Because inmortality was the gift granted to the elves by Ilúvatar.

When men die they go far beyond Valinor, far beyond Mandos' realm, to the unknown. Elves, on the other hand, go to Mandos' realm when they are slain and stay there until the end of time, dwarves too.

And don't forget Sam eventually winds up in Valinor after his wife dies. If memory serves me, he went with Gimli and Gimli's elf-friend. (I forget the name at the moment)

Hey troysvihl, where did you read that?

[troysvihl]

It's in the timeline at the end of the 3rd book. Sam winds up being governor of the Shire and living a long life, having kids with what's-her-name, and then when she dies it says he left for the island.

[Nuclear Krusader]

I'll have to check the book then, as I don't remember dat. Well I was reading the finale at 2 a.m. so that kinda explains it. .

Her name was Rose, I think.

[TimPoet]

Her name was Rose and his name was Legolas.

The answer to the trivia question goes deeper than that. Found it reading either his bio or other writings about him. Any other takers?

[mike breck]

What makes the trilogy more interesting when you go back and read them, is that Tolkien also saw the story as a analogy about the battle between traditional, aggrarian society v capitalist industrialisation.

It takes a whole, new meaning when you read the novels with that perspective in mind.

[Nuclear Krusader]

Originally posted by TimPoet The answer to the trivia question goes deeper than that. Found it reading either his bio or other writings about him. Any other takers?

Seems like I lost the prize. What is the answer?

[TimPoet]

Ok, Tolkien was a Catholic. The elves were men before the Fall, those with incorrupt natures, lacking original sin, therefore not doomed (Tolkien's version of the gift of men was Doom) to die.
That is also why Legolas was not phased when Strider led them through that tunnel in the mountain where the Dead all were. He had no fear of death.
In fact, all of the Lord Of The Rings is an exercise in the Christian worldview.

EDIT: Hmm, let me rephrase that. The elves were what man would be if the Fall in the Garden had not occured. He created 2 races of Man, one fallen and one unfallen.

[calmius]

So, is that why Gandalf didn't die in the abyss when he fell down in Moria? Initially I thought he survived through his magic then the elf queen Galadriel helped him, did she resurrect him? What's happening?

[TimPoet]

That part would be guessing, I'd say. I've heard no references on his intent with Gandalf. I mean it's obvious part of his story is an allegory to Christ and here in particular to His resurrection.
After I learned that about the elves I thought about a Christ figure in this story. It's not as clearcut as Tolkien's friend and contemporary, C.S. Lewis with His Narnia series or his Planet trilogy. It seems to me that Tolkien chose to have several characters portray Christ:
Gandalf, in overcoming death (notice how strong he was afterwards?) and his victorious guidance and leadership, Strider in his kingship, Frodo in his march to impending doom for the sake of Middle Earth and, grotesquely, in Gollum's death which destroyed the Ring and subsequently Sauron.
An incredible mind, an incredible author

[troysvihl]

Gandalf needed to disappear for the story to be any good.

That's why he falls down the hole in Moria. And that's also why he takes off and leaves Bilbo and the crew in The Hobbit.

If he stuck around, the journey would have been too easy and there would have been no character development.

[Nuclear Krusader]

Originally posted by troysvihl Gandalf needed to disappear for the story to be any good. That's why he falls down the hole in Moria. And that's also why he takes off and leaves Bilbo and the crew in The Hobbit. If he stuck around, the journey would have been too easy and there would have been no character development.

That reminds me of our parents' role: they show us the way, then they must leave us on our own. If they stay always with us, then we would never develop ourselves.

I always thought of the maiar as the equivalent of angels.

An incredible mind, an incredible author

Yes, indeed. His books can be your tipical fantasy novels, or a complete compendium of philosophy. Christian philosophy.