Windows media player costs Microsoft £331million

[Pentium-ant]

Just read this in the paper though you guys might find it interesting, I personally think all these fair trading laws are just going to far. I personally use windows media player all the time I think it is far better then all the other media players available out there. So why should Microsoft be forced to take it out of Windows.


COMPUTER giant Microsoft was today fined a record £331million by the European Commission.


The cash penalty was accompanied by orders to dismantle Microsoft's sales monopoly by no longer making purchase of its Windows operating system conditional on buying the firm's Media Player program.

The company was accused of breaching EU competition rules by "bundling" its own software and other services with its Windows system.

That made it difficult for other software makers to compete - particularly as Microsoft withheld the technical codes which allowed Windows-based personal computers to work better with servers.

Microsoft said the information was its own intellectual property and that offering a complete package was part of its commercial strategy.

The strategy worked well - more than 90% of personal computers worldwide run on Microsoft software.

Today's ruling in Brussels followed a four-year investigation led by
Competition Commissioner Mario Monti, who said: "It is essential to have a precedent which will establish clear principles for the future conduct of a company with such a strong, dominant position."

But Microsoft is appealing against the fine to the European Court of Justice and a final verdict could take five years.

Meanwhile, Microsoft will be seeking suspension of the Commission's order to start selling within 90 days a version of Windows without Media Player and to make available within 120 days the information other companies need to produce compatible rival server products.

Mr Gates is furious that the EU is interfering at all when Microsoft is
already subject to anti-trust laws in America.

But Mr Monti said the company's commercial methods affected millions of European customers and must comply with European Union laws.

The Commission, he argued, had a duty to offer monopoly protection to Microsoft's commercial rivals - and its retail customers - in Europe.

Mega-rich Microsoft will not be troubled by the size of the fine, even if it is the biggest ever sought by the Commission against any company.

But the knock-on effect of changing the way Microsoft markets its products in Europe could be huge.

Mr Gates is now determined to challenge the Commission's contention that the company which made him the world's richest man is an "abusive monopolist" which has manipulated the market at the expense of others.

[Tin]

thats BS to me. arent most software media players free anyway? i prefer windows media player myself as its the most versatile i have used. nothing compares to WMP.

[aym]

The problem is that most users find WMP pre-installed on their systems, and never bother looking for alternatives, even if they are free.

[HAL9000]

OK... so force auto manufacturers to stop bundling the radio with the car... it shouldn't come with one so you can install the one of your choice... while you're at it... no tires either.

[glc]

It's all about choice. I personally would welcome a M$ OS without IE, OE, and WMP because I prefer alternatives.

[aym]

Originally posted by HAL9000 OK... so force auto manufacturers to stop bundling the radio with the car... it shouldn't come with one so you can install the one of your choice... while you're at it... no tires either.

Sure, this is true if there was only one car manufacturer holding a monopoly on the market, this isn't the case in the car industry, you have many options to choose from.

MS has a monopoly on the OS market, lots of people are forced to use Windows, because they have it at work, don't know how to use something else, or some other reason, MS abuses its monopoly to kill competition and force users to use other products like WMP, by having them preinstalled with the OS.

With WMP being the most popular media player, streaming video/audio providers will choose wmv/wma servers, and other competitors like Apple (Qt) and RealNetworks (Real Player), will lose their market share.

BTW, Unlike the player, the streaming media server costs a lot of money.

[HAL9000]

Originally posted by aym_7 Sure, this is true if there was only one car manufacturer holding a monopoly on the market, this isn't the case in the car industry, you have many options to choose from.

Depends how you look at it.... I want a Dodge... but if I like my AC Delco Radio that I have in it... the combo isn't gonna happen now is it?

[tim1477]

I agree with HAL. Its there software, who are they to tell microsoft that they can't bundle WMP in their OS?? Good analogy with the car. WMP shoudl come preinstalled, if you don't like it, get somethign else.

[ogrerocks]

How many of you that swear by WMP, or IE, or any other built in programs, have every tried anyting else?
I'm willing to bet that you haven't.

If you look at alternatives to IE and WMP, the competition has features that the two are still lacking. For example, when the next version if IE comes out, everyone is going to hail M$ for putting tabbed browsing in. Mozilla, Opera, MyIE, Firefox, etc, have had tabbed browsing for as long as I can remember.

Another analogy: If you buy a new house, does it already come with GE appliances? A Serta mattress?
What good would the house be without the appliances and a bed? You have the option of choice.

M$ is hiding your choice.

[Craig100]

Ive used many, i use WMP9 as my default though, i think it is a good peice of software and was happy to see it bundled in with Windows XP, i can see there reasoning of new users using what is there however.

Craig

[Tin]

i love firefox, havent found any bugs with it yet. i used to swear by winamp, but i just got tired of it because i cant organise my files the way i can with WMP.

[GreenBMP]

They should come included but not installed, but they are necessary since not everyone has a good internet connection or none at all and finding/downloading a media player isn't as easy for people who know nothing about computers.

[diver203_98]

Nobody is forcing anyone to use WMP or IE. I used to use Netscape till I had to reinstall Windows, and now, for what I do I just use IE. And I tried RealPlayer, and really didn't use it.

Bottom line... If you don't want to use a feature, don't use it.

One thing more... There are websites that require you to use IE or it won't load the site, or won't load it completely.

[Hi Ho]

I think it is BS. They should not be forced to remove WMP. I personally prefer WMP not because it came with Windows but because it is good software. You don't have to use it.

other competitors like Apple (Qt) and RealNetworks (Real Player),

Real Player is losing market share because of the suff they put into their software. Read the following quote from Answersthatwork.com:

Real Networks Scheduler which gets installed with RealOne Player. Under Win9x/ME this task shows as TKBELLEXE, and as EVNTSVC under Windows 2000/XP or REALSCHED depending on which version of RealOne Player you have installed. From our experience, everything that applies to EVNTSVC below, also applies to REALSCHED. RNDAL elsewhere in these Task List pages is a good starting point to read about RealOne Player.

Next, a 15-Jun-2002 extract from the RealOne Player License Agreement that is specific to EVNTSVC (the said License Agreement was updated on 25-Nov-2002 by Real Networks and EVNTSVC was replaced by REALSCHED in that version of the License Agreement) : An application Scheduler, known as "evntsvc.exe," is installed along with RealOne Player. Once installed, it runs independently of RealOne Player. The Scheduler does not collect personal information or communicate with RealNetworks’ servers. It is used to remind AutoUpdate and Message Center to perform their tasks at pre-scheduled intervals. The Scheduler is also used to automatically launch RealNetworks’ Media Type Helper. The Media Type Helper ensures the system is configured for correct operation of the RealOne Player with Multi-Purpose Internet Mail Extensions ("MIME") types, file extensions, Internet protocols and other media types. If a media type has been assigned a different action by a different application, Media Type Helper may override the association and substitute its own association.

Recommendation :
If reading about RNDAL did not put you off, then read on. RealPlayer Classic used to be one of the most needed pieces of software on a PC. Its successor, RealOne Player, is vying for the title of the most hated piece of software. For a start, on many PCs EVNTSVC slows down boot-ups unacceptably, using up to 90% of CPU time at times. There have also been reports of EVNTSVC dropping advertising shortcuts onto the desktop during idle times. Next, if you try to disable EVNTSVC via The Ultimate Troubleshooter or MSCONFIG, RealOne Player checks to see if it has been deleted from the Registry and re-instates it as a startup item ! To be fair, there is a facility within RealOne Player to "only perform automatic services while RealOne Player is in use". As stated in our write-up for RNDAL, our recommendation is to de-install RealOne Player and either use the classic RealPlayer, or something else such as WinAmp. If you absolutely want to keep RealOne Player, we suggest you rename EVNTSVC.EXE to EVNTSVC.EXE.OLD (or REALSCHED.EXE to REALSCHED.OLD) as that is the only way to make absolutely certain that it never runs, and RealOne Player works fine without it.

That is why no one uses Real Player. Because it has spyware. I am not sure if I believe Real Networks privacy statement.

[homer15]

let's say microsoft didin't include a browser, mail program, or media player with it's software. what would most people do once they get windows installed? now they have to go out and buy something else (can't download anything if you can't browse the internet). if you don't like something on your computer, just don't use it. there are alternatives to everything in windows, just install them and use them. if microsoft really had a strangle hold monopoly on these products, they wouldn't allow anything else to be installed on the computer ever. microsoft tries to make it usable right out of the box.

(does anybody agree that these debates never get anyway? it's almost like an amd vs intel debate)

[HAL9000]

Originally posted by ogrerocks How many of you that swear by WMP, or IE, or any other built in programs, have every tried anyting else? I'm willing to bet that you haven't. If you look at alternatives to IE and WMP, the competition has features that the two are still lacking. For example, when the next version if IE comes out, everyone is going to hail M$ for putting tabbed browsing in. Mozilla, Opera, MyIE, Firefox, etc, have had tabbed browsing for as long as I can remember. Another analogy: If you buy a new house, does it already come with GE appliances? A Serta mattress? What good would the house be without the appliances and a bed? You have the option of choice. M$ is hiding your choice.

I have used plenty... I use WMP and the software that came with my AIW card.

MS is "hiding" my choice... how? I STILL have a choice to use a different product. HOW is my choice hidden or taken away just because IE and WMP are built in. I CAN install ANY other software can't I? Is this software more difficult for me to find on the net than somebody who doesn't have these items. No offense, but saying my choice has been taken away or hidden is the most laughable thing I have ever read.

[Alienware_Dude]

Originally posted by HAL9000 I have used plenty... I use WMP and the software that came with my AIW card. MS is "hiding" my choice... how? I STILL have a choice to use a different product. HOW is my choice hidden or taken away just because IE and WMP are built in. I CAN install ANY other software can't I? Is this software more difficult for me to find on the net than somebody who doesn't have these items. No offense, but saying my choice has been taken away or hidden is the most laughable thing I have ever read.

Well said, HAL. The bottom line is: if you're a user who is looking for an alternative to the programs that come bundled with Windows, you know where to find them. If you don't, there's no reason to use something else, anyway.

[i3OSS]

If WMP and IE werent installed, you know how many people's would sit front of their new computer not knowing what to do after they pressed the pretty button in the front? Microsoft is just making it easy to use, by pre-installing and auto launching when a music file is double clicked or when a cd is entered in the cd/dvd drive.

If they're so mad at losing money, why dont they do a better job at advertising and making better products.

[GhostRecon]

Microsoft is Evil! Hidden Files, and stuff!

[patrickt]

If you can't compete in the marketplace, you go to court.

I use WMP and IE because both work quite well for me. There are a lot of "things" in my life where having the best simply isn't important. They get the job done for me.

I loaded RealPlayer once, so a friend could listen to a memorial to her husband on a radio station that only supported RealPlayer. I didn't like it and I certainly didn't like all the nonsense it loaded onto my computer. I ended up formatting the hard drive to make sure it was all gone and I'll never download anything from RealPlayer again.

I have used other browsers only when I was working on someone else's computer. Not impressed enough to pursue getting one.

While they're at it though, why don't they make MS removed all the other pieces that used to be third-party products. Fonts beyond the one native font, defrag programs, popup blockers, CD-R writers, basic photo editing programs, firewall, program for synching system time.

[HAL9000]

Look at it this way too... remove IE... OK.. NOW you have removed choice... kinda hard to download anything now.

[Hi Ho]

^ Exactly. An OS should come with all the basics such as applications to play media files, browse the internet, view photos, etc. I don't see anyone suing Apple. They include a full fledged video editing program along with all the same things that are in Windows.

[ogrerocks]

Originally posted by Hi Ho ^ Exactly. An OS should come with all the basics such as applications to play media files, browse the internet, view photos, etc. I don't see anyone suing Apple. They include a full fledged video editing program along with all the same things that are in Windows.

Apple doesn't have a 92% share of the OS market.

Originally posted by patrickt While they're at it though, why don't they make MS removed all the other pieces that used to be third-party products. Fonts beyond the one native font, defrag programs, popup blockers, CD-R writers, basic photo editing programs, firewall, program for synching system time.

If they want to be completely fair, yes, they should remove all of them. I would have absolutley no problem with that.




Linux distros offer different browsers, media players, etc. Mandrake doesn't automaticlly install Mandrake media player 35 when you install it.

Bottom line here: M$ is using it's monopoly status to unfairly promote it's software, forcing competitiors out of business.

[Hi Ho]

Windows Media Player has always been a part of Windows. As well as IE ever since the internet came around. They weren't so much of a monopoly then. They have done nothing but improve on the software. Windows holds %92 of the market due to good marketing and quality products that people choose to buy. The reason Windows is everywhere is because people bought it, liked it, and bought the next version. People chose Windows over Apple long ago. It is still that way not because Microsoft includes IE and WMP, but because people are still buying Windows. Another example is Microsoft Office. It is not included with Windows and it is not free. However, it is still the most widely used office software. Even though there are free alternatives. Even Mac users use Microsoft Office because it is excellent software, not because it was forced upon people. It wasn't. Nothing was. Ultimately, the people who bought Microsoft software in the past and continue to do so are contributing to the "monopoly". That includes me and I do not intend to stop.

If they want to be completely fair, yes, they should remove all of them. I would have absolutley no problem with that.

Why should they remove those? Why make people go out and download there own third party clock syncronizer that takes up resources and probably includes spyware? Windows XP uses Roxio CD burning software. There is no monopoly in that. It's another companies software. It would be rediculous to remove all but one font. That would be taking it way to far. Many of those things are free anyway. The companies aren't making any money off of them. Why would it matter if it is included in Windows or not? I would rather have the convienience of having all those things installed already so I don't have to spend my time finding them on some web page.

[homer15]

jeez, the next thing you know, webster's dictionary is going to sue microsoft for people not needing to look up word spellings anymore.

[glc]

Windows Media Player has always been a part of Windows. As well as IE ever since the internet came around.

Sorry, this is incorrect. The first web browser that M$ even offered was IE1, it was an OPTIONAL component of the original Win95. IE2 was released as part of the "Plus" pack for Win95 and came with WinNT4. IE3 was bundled with Win95B and it WAS possible to not install it with a bit of trickery, and it was NOT embedded into the OS as an essential component like IE4+. IE4 debuted with Win95C.

Windows Media Player was not embedded into the OS till Win98SE, this was version 6.1. All previous versions were installable and uninstallable as extensions.

You are all missing the real issue. The problem is these 2 components are EMBEDDED and cannot be easily (if at all) removed. Sure, we can install alternatives - IF they are stable (another issue, any of you remember how Netscape 4 and Win98 were crash city?). This "embedding" is the crux of all these lawsuits and stuff.

[GaryRouth]

Seems the monopoly position puts Microsoft in the hot corner over and over.

The strong-arm backroom marketing shenanigans with some vendors might not have helped things either.

I just wish the lawsuits would stick to any illegal marketing and leave the bundling issue out of it. Every Linux distro, every Apple system, even the Be and such fringe operating systems - all come with bundled multimedia components. . .

If Apple had 90% of the European market, would they be in hot water for iTunes? etc. . .

[. . . the whole situation reminds me of the nonsensical "Stress" claim in Workers Compensation lawsuits . . . somewhere along the way, common sense goes out the window . . .]
________________

What the litigation should focus on - is embedding that actively cripples it's competitiors with hidden tricks in the OS code - that would be a "smoking gun"

[ogrerocks]

Originally posted by Hi Ho Windows Media Player has always been a part of Windows. As well as IE ever since the internet came around. They weren't so much of a monopoly then. They have done nothing but improve on the software. Windows holds %92 of the market due to good marketing and quality products that people choose to buy. The reason Windows is everywhere is because people bought it, liked it, and bought the next version. People chose Windows over Apple long ago. It is still that way not because Microsoft includes IE and WMP, but because people are still buying Windows. Another example is Microsoft Office. It is not included with Windows and it is not free. However, it is still the most widely used office software. Even though there are free alternatives. Even Mac users use Microsoft Office because it is excellent software, not because it was forced upon people. It wasn't. Nothing was. Ultimately, the people who bought Microsoft software in the past and continue to do so are contributing to the "monopoly". That includes me and I do not intend to stop.

AT&T got there the same way, but they were still considered a monopoly. It doesn't mater how you achieved it, just that you are.

Originally posted by Hi Ho Why should they remove those? Why make people go out and download there own third party clock syncronizer that takes up resources and probably includes spyware? Windows XP uses Roxio CD burning software. There is no monopoly in that. It's another companies software. It would be rediculous to remove all but one font. That would be taking it way to far. Many of those things are free anyway. The companies aren't making any money off of them. Why would it matter if it is included in Windows or not? I would rather have the convienience of having all those things installed already so I don't have to spend my time finding them on some web page.

I can honestly say I have never used many of the built-in windows features, with the exceptions of Paint. My closk syncronozer may be working, but I don't use the clock on my PC, I use my watch and a clock radio.
The point in removing these features is to be fair to competitiors.

If Windows uses Roxio software I'm sure Roxio is making money from the contract they signed with M$.

Many of these companies you speak of aren't there because M$ has made their own version and bundled into Windows.
Is it fair that everyone uses M$ pop-up blocker because it works and was already there? They didn't invent pop-up blockers. If you think it is fair, what is keeping M$ from branching into every bit a software and integrating them all into Windows? It is unfair to business competitiors.

[HAL9000]

So the issue is that it is embedded and that you want to remove it... what? Need to save 50MB on your 120GB drive?

[glc]

No, so that my preferred alternatives will work properly without interference.