flat panel

[ssahl]

I'm going to get a new flat panel LCD monitor, I wanted to know if I should get one that has DVI interface. Is there that much of a difference? My video card has both on the back, but I wanted to know if/what the difference is, I dont do much video editing but I do do some gaming.

[EzyStvy]

JUst happen to find this over at Tom's.
http://www6.tomshardware.com/display...221/index.html


VGA or DVI?

"Theoretically, it's best to plug a monitor into the DVI of the video card if it has one. This means the card does not have to convert the signal to analog, an operation always likely to cause loss. But actually, these days, converters are excellent and there is no noticeable difference between the interfaces. So make the choice that fits your wallet. There is usually a price difference of about $100 between a DVI and a D-Sub monitor, so you will most likely find it better to settle for analog."

[Floppyman]

I think that for gaming a bigger factor to consider would be response time. Whatever LCD you end up going with make sure the response time nice and low, otherwise you see some "ghosting". HTH

[ssahl]

is 25ms to high you think?

[lil Jimmie]

Mine has 35ms and I don't see any ghosting.

[got_ammo]

Originally posted by ssahl is 25ms to high you think?

The lower the better. I quote from a post at hardocp forums:

"-= Screen Size =-
1. Flat Panels display size is the exact size of the display (unlike CRT displays which list a 17" monitor that only has a 15" or 16" display), so with that in mind, a 17" Flat Panel is equivalent to a 18-19" CRT Display, a 18" Flat Panel is the same as a 19-20" CRT Display, a 19" Flat Panel is equivalent to a 20-21" CRT Display, and a 20" Flat Panel is equivalent to a 21-22" CRT Display.


-= Native Resolution =-
2. Flat panels are usually set with a certain native setting (Such as the Dell 1800's 1280x1024), and deliver great performance (for text and static graphics relative to CRT’s) when used at this resolution. When used at a different resolution, there is a scaling / interpolation, which can significantly reduce the quality of the output.

Don’t gloss over this scaling issue; it’s a big deal. Any time you want to run your LCD at a non-native full screen resolution it will be scaled giving you a blurry, soft-focused visual. If you don’t intend to use a Flat Panel at its native resolution, then you should just get a CRT.

With this in mind, make sure that the video card you purchase will allow you to run your games at that resolution (Such as1280x1024 with the above Dell example), at the frame rate you want (more on this below).

Also, make sure the video card you get has a DVI connector to connect to the LCD as well (as the typical analog connector degrades the picture quality sent to an LCD).


-= Contrast Levels =-
3. Look for one with at least 500:1, this allows a greater view of blacks and grays, rather than having them all blend in together. Even with a 500:1 LCD, you still wont have the same levels of blacks and grays found in a CRT, but it's getting closer.


-= Color Settings =-
4. Please remember that although LCD manufactures claim that their displays allow 16.7 million colors (10-bit sub or true 32-bit color). Most new LCD’s only support 8-bit sub (or 24-bit color). Expect to see LCD’s support 10-bit sub toward the end of the year (2003). It also appears that the new 16ms LCD’s (see the PCWorld quote below) are only capable of 16-18bit color.


-= Response Time =-
5. Currently the fastest LCD's have a 16ms response time (such as the 17" Hitachi CML 174). Expect to see the next generation of Flat Panels to have a 12ms response time. Currently only 17" LCD displays have the 16ms response time, expect larger displays to get this Response time before years end.

Look for any LCD with 16ms or less Response time to avoid ghosting problems in games and DVD movies. Please remember that everyone's eyes are different, and while some people might claim that this or that display (while having a 25ms respons time or less) is ghost free. Often this isn't the case, and depending upon the game played, could be true or false. Just as some people don't have a problem looking at a CRT screen with 75hz refresh rate, others might need 100+ refresh rate to avoid eyestrain, and or headaches. To avoid any doubt, get the lowest response time you can.

New testing (from the Ars Technica Forum <http://arstechnica.infopop.net/Open...4190936913&p=60> ) has shown that some LCD’s with a 25ms speed are actually slower when certain colors are present. An example is the Samsung 191t, which has a 40ms (rough guess) when displaying darker gray-scale colors (found in games like Return to Castle Wolfenstein). This also affects such things as scrolling around in webpages and dragging a window around onscreen. You might also notice streaking with certain colors depending upon the screen you purchased.

Also look for new technologies (Mitsubishi’s “Feed-forward”, LG’s “Overdrive circuit”), which is a Grey-to-Grey response time enhancement (12ms avg. GTG). Here is a good article on the new 16ms LCD’s and some of their drawbacks from PCWorld <http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,108237,00.asp> and a quote:
”Another caveat: These first fast LCD’s use relatively simple twisted nematic (TN) pixel technology, which does not match the color quality and viewing angles of in-plane switching (IPS) and multidomain vertical alignment. So if speed isn't a concern, you might want to spend your display dollars on a slower but better quality LCD.”

Please don’t confuse Response Time with refresh rates on CRT monitors. Remember, CRT's need to constantly refresh the screen. The CRT electrons (beamed at the screen from an electron gun) hit the phosphors on the screen, making the pixels turn on, and then turn off. So with a CRT you get this: Image - black screen - Image - black screen, etc. With LCD's, pixels don’t turn off, they just change, so you won’t actually see the black screen in between like you would on a CRT. Without the black screens, your eyes won’t get tired (or sore) even at lower refresh rates.

Refresh rates to Response times quick reference.
(CRT refresh rate = LCD Response time):

40Hz = 25ms
60Hz = 17ms
72Hz = 14ms
75Hz = 13ms
85Hz = 12ms
100Hz = 10ms

Here is a tool to test Ghosting on LCD screens.

-= Gamma Correction =-
6. Most LCD’s don’t even have Gamma correction, or those that do have 8-bit (for 256 gray tones), while the newer Sharp LL-T1820 has 10-bit (for 1,024 gray tones). These extra tones can make a difference when viewing high-detail pictures allowing more subtle tonal gradations. If you get a Flat Panel that doesn’t have Gamma Control, make sure that your video card has some form of gamma correction to help avoid problems with your display.

The best information I could give you on this issue, is a test Maximum PC does on various LCD's. They use a Picture of a dark Motorcycle helmet, reflecting the scene around it. On screens with a good Gamma correction, you could actually see the reflection of the person taking the picture displayed on the helmet. Poor Gamma correction, and you would only see dark shapes reflected on the helmet.


-= Pixel Pitch =-
7. This allows for a finer text reproduction with 0.255mm allowing the display of 8point text without any problem.

Remember, smaller pixels equal greater definition; it’s as simple as that. You can use the LCD text script in DisplayMate <http://www.displaymate.com/> to test these out for yourself.

Also, don’t forget the Clear Type settings in WindowsXP’s (Display properties\Appearance\Effects under Screen fonts), as well as going to their web page <http://www.microsoft.com/typography...type/ctpref.htm> to test your Clear Type settings. Here is another program called ClearTweak, that will allow you to adjust the Clear Type settings.


-= Brightness =-
8. Brightness: Refers to the backlight of the LCD, and should be at a minimum of 250 candelas per square meter (cd/M2). Of course brighter is better (after all, who wants a dark LCD), so look for newer models to have up to 600 cd/M2


-= Viewing Angle =-
9. Viewing Angle: Look for a LCD with a viewing angle of at least 120 degrees horizontal and 100 degrees vertical (or something really close, with higher always being better), so you don’t have the colors of your image look different from different angles (color wash out), or even a blank screen. After all, nobody wants to sit exactly in front of the monitor to be able to view it all the time.


-= Dead Pixels =-
10. What’s a dead pixel you ask? Well, when you apply voltage to a subpixel in a traditional LCD display, the molecules in the subpixel’s liquid crystal material line up with the field produced by the voltage. This alignment effectively turns off the pixel; any light emanating from the panel’s backlight is blocked. Conversely, when voltage is removed, light can pass through.

The subpixel is like a window shade that opens and closes as voltage is switched off and on. If you have a dead pixel, applying voltage has no effect on the alignment of the liquid crystal material (so the backlight permanently shines through). The result is a persistent fleck of beaming bright light that mars an otherwise normal screen image.

Basically, all Flat Panels will have a few dead pixels (1 to 3 is typical), and if you get any more, you should exchange the LCD for another one (so make sure the people you buy it from will allow this, most companies will).

One new feature of the Sharp LL-T1820 is Zero Voltage Black, which reverses the voltage model. The application of voltage opens the subpixel’s windows shade, while the absence of voltage closes the window shade. The upshot is that broken subpixels on Sharp’s LCD is unobtrusive, as they don’t beam glaring backlight.

Found this little program to test for Dead or Stuck Pixels.


-= Power Use =-
11. LCD's use about half the electricity as a CRT monitor. Which depending upon the price you paid for your LCD, could pay back the difference of the cost of a Flat Panel, in about 3 years or so.

So although an LCD may cost more initially, in the long run, they will cost less overall. This is assuming an LCD will last for over 3 years.


Last but not least is a page I found that might help people out using LCD's." here is link to original

Hope this helps.

[RJ]

"-= Screen Size =- 1. Flat Panels display size is the exact size of the display (unlike CRT displays which list a 17" monitor that only has a 15" or 16" display), so with that in mind, a 17" Flat Panel is equivalent to a 18-19" CRT Display, a 18" Flat Panel is the same as a 19-20" CRT Display, a 19" Flat Panel is equivalent to a 20-21" CRT Display, and a 20" Flat Panel is equivalent to a 21-22" CRT Display.

Not really. Sure a 19" TFT is bigger than a 17" one, but the native res. is the same (1280x1024). 17" 18" and 19" have the same nativ res, only the size is different. So while the bigger area may be nice for games, for normal text you don't get any higher res. than on a 17".
So if you want a monitor that can match a 21" CRT, get a 20" TFT, not a 19".
19" is only if area (i.e. for games) is the important thing for you and not the res.

-= Contrast Levels =- 3. Look for one with at least 500:1, this allows a greater view of blacks and grays, rather than having them all blend in together. Even with a 500:1 LCD, you still wont have the same levels of blacks and grays found in a CRT, but it's getting closer.

400:1 and up is ok. There are not yet many TFTs with 500:1 and more.

-= Brightness =- 8. Brightness: Refers to the backlight of the LCD, and should be at a minimum of 250 candelas per square meter (cd/M2). Of course brighter is better (after all, who wants a dark LCD), so look for newer models to have up to 600 cd/M2

Bah. Forget it. Haven't seen a 600cd/m² TFT yet, and even if, it's too bright. 210 and 250 cd/m² are normal and good values. A CRT does max out at 120, and for people who only use CRT and then change to TFT sometimes they find 250 cd/m² a bit too bright, but you'll get used to it.
600 cd/m², that's overkill. You don't need that if you don't wear sunglasses in front of the PC.

-= Viewing Angle =- 9. Viewing Angle: Look for a LCD with a viewing angle of at least 120 degrees horizontal and 100 degrees vertical (or something really close, with higher always being better), so you don’t have the colors of your image look different from different angles (color wash out), or even a blank screen. After all, nobody wants to sit exactly in front of the monitor to be able to view it all the time.

120° horizontal is a little low. Even my TFT has 150° horizontal, and many are even better. Also 100° vertical is a little low. Mine has 100° vertical and I've seen better ones. 150°/140° should be what you should look for.

-= Pixel Pitch =-

That is not important. What you should look for instead is the native resolution, as only at that one resolution a TFT can display an extremely sharp image.

I wanted to know if I should get one that has DVI interface. Is there that much of a difference?

Definitely get one. The difference is marginal, but it is there and also noticeable. The sharpest picture you'll get at native resolution and with DVI connection.

RJ

[got_ammo]

I didn't make that post, just copied it here. I guess there were some errors eh? Thanks for the info RJ.

[ssahl]

well, price is a factor, but if I can get good 15" with dvi connection for around $400 I think thats what I'll do. as for the resolution, I really dont want anything more then 1024 X 768, not for gaming, my video card aint that good. thanks for the input everyone. let you know what I get, or if I decide to wait yet longer because of money. thanks again

[ssahl]

Ok, I seen a MAG 17" flat panel monitor with a dvi connection
22ms
500 to 1 contrast ratio
140/160 viewing angle
my only concearn is that the resolution is 1280x1024 (max resolution) it didnt say native so I'm not for sure on this. My current flat panel has native resolution of 1024x768 and any other resolution I set it to it looks like total crap! so I leave it there, and play all my games at that resolution too. If I get one that is 1280x1024 will that mean that I'm going to have to play my games at that resolution???
I dont think my video card can do that (it probably can but not very well) or will I be able to use the monitor at other resolutions because it says 'max resolution'

[RJ]

Yep 17" TFTs have a native res of 1280x1024.

RJ