Crowing

[AlwaysUp]

Some time back I recommended a Microsoft MN-700 802.11g wireless router and 4port Ethernet switch to a member here and got creamed from some heavyweight users of the forum as to why they would NOT recommend this router. Well, all I gotta say is that I read boocoo headaches posted here about problems with just about every other brand of wireless equipment. I also know there are other users using this same solution that I have and I haven't read of problems they are experiencing. All I know is that my network is fast, reliable and secure. Zero problems in over 12 months of use on a 5 PC network. Just thought I'd volunteer this to illustrate that just because a product has Microsoft attached to it, doesn't mean the M$oft haters should gather like sharks in bloody water.

[glc]

It's not the fact that it's Microsoft - it's the fact that you have to install bloated software to make it work! THAT is why I do not recommend it - not because it doesn't work! I feel the same way about ANY equipment - or ISP's, too (HINT - AOL, MSN, Netzero, etc.).

I have many customers with other brands of equipment that have had zero problems too - of COURSE you are going to see problems posted here because if it's working fine, who posts?

Crow all you want, but I'm going to keep bashing it because I don't like it for what I feel are legitimate reasons.

[rightcoast]

Not a not against MS, but they are huge fans of UPnP. I would be sure it's disabled. Makes it a breeze to set up and maintain with gaming, bittorrent and all that. Also makes it a breeze to run an active crack (or sniff and run JTR passive) against your admin password. If I had to guess (that's all this is, I'm sure it's a great router but MS ships UPnP enabled by default on thier OS, why not the router) that's the reason it is such a breeze.

If you must leave Universal Plug and Play enabled, you can't use Remote Access at all. If Remote Access and UPnP are both enabled on the WAN interface, a UPnP SOAP request can retrieve the username and password for the WAN interface without even bothering to crack it.

[AlwaysUp]

We ALL know who the 800 lb. gorrilla is here, GLC. I am just a poor user that likes a particular piece of hardware and would like to share my positive experiences. But it feels that you are pretty heavy handed when disagreed with. I positively hate the Linksys line of wireless routers and the clumbsy configuration interface, but do I try to step all over your recommending them? As far as bloatware is concerned, My trusty old PIII 800 gateway PC never coughs about it so I don't see that that is such an issue and having used both configuration utilities; there is no question on which I prefer.
Rightcoast, I was under the impression that most all routers today, support UPnP, weather it is default or not, I am uncertain. Don't have any use for Remote Access, so, no I don't enable it. And I must admit you seem much more aware of cracking methods than I.

[glc]

I'm glad you like it and I respect that - but you also have to respect the fact that I do NOT like it. I also respect that you consider the Linksys interface clumsy, but I personally feel that it's the EASIEST interface of all the brands I've worked with. Perhaps it's just familiarity? You pay a price for the simple Microsoft setup, trust me. You just don't see the pitfalls, and that's fine. If it works for you, enjoy, but I won't sell them or support them. I'm not trying to be heavy handed, I'm just telling it like it is.

[rightcoast]

They do all support it, but it shouldn't be used IMO. It can make life a lot easier, but it's like buying a deadbolt and leaving the key in for convenience. Just like that in fact. You don't have to disable it, especially at home...Not many human attackers go after a specific home machine with just the sheer numbers of machines out there, but I'd turn it off if it's on. When a script kiddie sees UPnP on they feel like a normal 15 year old does during the intro to baywatch

All kidding aside, If it were me I would at check that isn't enabled. Like I said, I don't know if it is or isn't turned on by default. If it is on your better off configuring it yourself. Microsoft does rely on UPnP sometimes to make things easier for users, but it comes at a big security cost. If it is on, you may just be able to turn it off and not even notice since it is pretty much a client-server architecture.
Here is a little on UPnP since you said you don't much about it by Steve Gibson, the guy who developed Shields Up!. Don't let the written in 2001 throw you off, it's all still relevant.
http://www.grc.com/unpnp/unpnp.htm

Speaking of Shields Up! heres the link to it, it's basically a glorified port scan with easy to interpret results. If it finds anything it lets you know and gives you some options and info like steps you can take or user forums you can go to.
https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2

To weigh in on the topic at hand, I like the Linksys interface. I haven't used your router though Always Up. Do you need .NET and MSN for it to run? Just curious.

[AlwaysUp]

I can't believe "bloatware" is even a concern anymore with the obscene amount of system RAM and hdd space available today, but your point is taken. You do NOT like them or sell them or support them. Well I have sold them and set them up for 3 small businesses locally and as far as support, no I have not had but one issue with them called in by a customer. It was resolved with a simple Power off and back on of his cable modem.....NOT the router.

Rightcoast. I am well aware of grc.com and have been there and read all of his "Unplug and Pray" and all his other articles. I believe your "script kiddies" reference was a coined term by Steve Gibson himself, according to his article about "Denial of Service Attack". BTW, as my last two occasions to visit grc.com they were down as was this mornings case. Seems he is offline about as often as online, nowadays; proving my opinion the bigger the target you make of yourself the easier you will be hit....

I do have experiece with Linksys, contrary to GLC's implication that I am none too familiar with Linksys and don't understand the pitfalls and such. My experience is (with respect to enable or disable UPnP or not) that I spent over a year trying here and with Linksys tech support and other sites to configure a BEFSR41 4port ethernet router to reliably allow both video AND audio for netcamming. Never "got 'er dun"! Best suggestion I ever got in that time was to place the machine outside the DMZ. Well even dumb me felt this was a little too risky for serious consideration. I now frequently spend tons of time seeing my grandson of 1 month, netcam with my in-laws and brother in Kentucky all without any of the frustration that I experienced with Linksys. I do however find their equipment an attractive color! LOL

[rightcoast]

I do however find their equipment an attractive color! LOL

[glc]

rightcoast - I don't think it needs MSN or .NET, but you *have* to install software, you can't just hook it up and surf into it. The software is all wizard driven.

[rightcoast]

Yeah, sounds like you are both right, which as an outsider to the discussion seems to be the case I figure. I just thought it might need MSN because I got curious and looked up the default username and password and whatever else I could find on it. SSID was MSNNETWORK or something like that. No online .pdf manual though, I still have no idea if it relies on UPnP.

It may not be bloated in the sense it slows down the comp or eats your RAM and cycles....but that does seem completely pointless when the protocol works fine without any software. Whatever works for you Always Up, but there is just no possible way it runs as fast as a strictly OSI layer 3 device. Not if it has to cross layers to send even one packet. You're right in that the difference may be so small so as to be unoticable though. Especially with a fast connection and computer. I don't think it could even work in a network of any substancial size, but if it's working great for you and everything is smooth....that's all that needs to be said right there. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[AlwaysUp]

It definately does not need either MSN or .NET. I have included a screenshot of just one management tool page that has no settings revealed, just as a visual for this configuration interface. I like it much better than a browser based interface.

[glc]

Looks like a browser interface to me.............