Networking: It's a black art, not a science.

[Staren]

Ok, I have now come to the conclusion that networking is not a science by any streach of the imagination. It's a black art.

Tonight about an hour ago my internet connection went down. Now being on the local comcast network in a college town, this happens once or twice a month. Nothing new. As I do every time this happens, just to make sure it isn't my hardware for sure and to let everything get back to fresh working order, I did a soft reset of my modem and router. Shut down my wired desktop. Then pulled power from the router. Then from the modem. Gave it a good 20 count, and powered everything back up in reverse order. Come to find out my network is no longer working. It can't even find my routers control panel at the designated IP. Ok, shut everything down again, and this time plug the computer right into the modem to rule out my NIC or modem being the problem. Nope. I can get on-line just fine that way. Alright, it's a router problem. Shut everything down again, and do another soft reset of the router, but this time leave the modem out of the set-up. Nope. Still can't see anything. Ok. Hard reset time. Bring everything back up, and it's working! But what's this? It didn't do a full reset? All my settings are still there. But it's working so I'm not going to try and figure it out.

And that boys and girls, was my evening entertainment.

[bailey]

no, I think I would disagree with that statement. computers and networking are a very accurate science and there is no give or take in it.
now the hardware can do some things that seam strange to us, but mostly its because of a lack of knowledge of whats happening because it appears to be doing something it isn't supposed to be doing, but in fact if we knew exactly what it was doing, then we would understand why it was doing something that it wasn't supposed to be doing.
modems are usually solid, but routers can and do some things that only it knows what its doing but we don't.
and then you through in the pile the individual components in the circuit board you now have a whole bunch of devices that have a mind of there own, and don't follow any rules of the game at all,
that is why it may appear to be black magic like it is.

it may be a possibility that your router is getting on shake ground and may be getting ready to retire soon, so keep a eye on it for any unusual circumstances

[Staren]

You really arn't a lot of fun, you know that? Yes I know that if you took the time to really understand the core of the technology that it would make perfict sense, but you have to admit that when you get the entire device together running in the real world, some of this stuff can get pretty weird.

Yes, I do plan to keep an eye on it, but it shouldn't be getting ready to drop out on me. It's a WRT54G v.5 so it isn't that old.

[bailey]

glad to see you understand my warped sence of humor.

I have been in electronics all my life, and have a lot of weard things that breaks all the rules.
good luck with it.

[Garb]

The networking goblins are getting mischievous again...

Sorry I really cant offer any help here

[mbossman2]

Staren, that happens to me from time to time (usually after a power loss), nothing seems to want to work properly.

if I were to guess, my gut is that the firmware on both the router and the modem get corrupted and when you reconnect, the modem gets its version of a "hard reset" and then the router needs the same thing.

[Staren]

mbossman2, I think you might be right. We've been under rolling brown outs the last two days, and it was after one of those that the problem started. It was working last night and for an hour or so this morning, but then it happened again. I'm going to try another full reset now and hope it can at least get me into the control panel. If I can at least get that far, linksys put out a new firmware update Monday so I'm going to see if that helps any.

I understand everything I have read on computers. I don't know everything. Not by a long shot, but anything I have been exposed to I understand. Networking is the only thing that does not hold true for. Most of it just seems beyound logic for me.

[Staren]

Ok, I guess I just have to get a new router. Even after doing a reset by holding the reset button down for a full minute and then pulling it off power for 10 minutes, it still won't transfer anything to the modem or access the IP of the control panel. It isn't the ethernet ports because wireless has the same problem. It isn't the ethernet cable since I can access the net if I plug it right into the modem.

[bailey]

can you try and do a firmware update flash ? before buying a new one, it worth a shot.

[calypso]

What lights are on when the modem is connected to everything? Any blinking?

-calypso

[Staren]

I can't even get into the control panel to do a firmware update. If I could, I would have. I get the same page not found message from 192.168.1.1 that I get from anywhere out on the net. All lights on the modem read ok. I even get a solid light to "PC/Activity". So the router is talking to the modem on some level. I've tried setting the router up without the modem in the mix at all, just to see if I could get into the control panel. Same problems. There is no indication on the router that there is a problem either. Power is good. WAN is green, along with any ethernet ports I have plugged in. "Internet" is also solid. It looks like it should be working. It either can't access anything, or can't display anything to me. I have to assume it's the former since the problem is on all ethernet ports and wireless. What's throwing me is that it can't find itself on the internal IP.

Just so you have the info, the hardware is:
Linksys WRT54G v.5 firmware ver. 1.00.4
Motorola SB 5120

[bailey]

if you can't clear it with a hard reset, then its a gonner I think.

[Staren]

Ya, that's what I figured. I'm really wondering what caused this problem though. We had some brown outs when it started and that's the only thing I can figure, but the problem should just software if that's the case. The townhouse complex I live in has a pretty advanced volt/amp meter hooked up to the lines coming into the complex as a service to all us college students who need our computers. I get an e-mail pretty quick if there is a spike or drop that could do any real damage.

[bailey]

I have seen some weared things happen and sometimes unable to explain it, usally say that a transient got it and that would be the end of it, I have never as yet seen that router go bad by its self.

[Staren]

Just to add some more info to this.

Trying to ftp myself (127.0.0.1) returns unkown error code.

Pinging returns can not find host.

ipconfig returns:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : hsd1.fl.comcast.net.
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 0.0.0.0
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 0.0.0.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . :

Ya, I think this router is done.

[bailey]

no, wait:
pinging 127.0.0.1 is the built in ip address for the nic only, for self test, if you can't do that, then the nic is bad.
it is internal of the nic only and has nothing to do with anything outside the nic,
its that or I am missing something.

[Staren]

No I can ping myself just fine without the router connected. What I did with 127.0.0.1 last night was try and get an ftp connection to myself. I wanted to see if by some weird chance I had gotten a winsock error on the system. Pretty slim chance considering I can get on-line fine without the router, but I was in the command line anyway doing the ping and ipconfig tests so I thought I would double check. The pings I ran where to google, both IP and domain.

[bailey]

ok, so your saying that when in the command prompt you can ping 127.0.0.1 and you get a good response, that says the nic is ok then, I thought you posted that you did not get a good response.

so were back to the router then. glad we got that strighten out.

[edfair]

Would actually suspect that they weigh them for final inspection.
Rather than black art I would describe it as luck of the draw. Sometimes you get one that works all the time, sometimes you get one that hardly ever works, and most are somewhere in between.
Had a Belkin that lost setups about every 3 weeks, until it finally lost them forever. But I could access it through IE and the setup and get it going pretty fast. When it died I pulled the spare and popped it in. Funny part was once when it died I set it aside for 3 weeks, then tried it again and it came back to life for a couple of weeks.

[Staren]

Exactly. The nic seems fine. Running "ftp 127.0.0.1" returns "Unkown error number". Which if it was a winsock error or some other software problem, should have given me a known error code.

Pinging out to google.com without the router gives a good list of hops. With the router, it just gives a "can not find host" error. If the router was on default (as it should be after being fully reset I don't know how many times) it should just pass the data back and forth no problem. I've done quick 10 second resets, full minute resets, reset then pulled power, pulled power while the reset button was pressed, and reset and had the WRT do it's quick set-up deal. Tested access after each one of these. Nothing either give me internet conectivity, or found the login for the control panel at 192.168.1.1.

It's almost as if there was a bad firmware flash, but I've never done one to this router. If I can find a way to force feed the thing new firmware without needing the control panel, I'll try it.

[Staren]

I found these instructions on one of the openscourse firmware forums. I guess turning routers in to bricks because of a bad flash is common enough for them to have found a way out of it.

------------------

This is caused by the firmware not loading correctly. Follow the steps below to fix this:
Note: This process must be done on a computer plugged into the router directly.
You first need to establish a connection to the Internet and download firmware for your router. To get
online, bypass the router and plug directly into your Cable or DSL modem.
1.
Download the latest firmware upgrade for your router from http://www.linksys.com/download. Be
sure to select the WRT54G and the correct version number that matches your router. Look on the
bottom of the router to verify the model and version (no version number means version 1.0).
2.
Click on Downloads for this Product. When the Downloads page loads, click on the Firmware button. 3.
Download the firmware Auto Upgrade Utility .exe file from this page. 4.
Before performing the upgrade, we recommend that you do the following: 5.
Assign your computer a static IP address. For more information, please see Article KB10934010 for
information on setting up a static IP address in Windows.
·
If using a 10/100 network adapter, change its speed to 10Mb, half duplex. Please see the instructions
below on how to do this.
·
Windows 95/98/ME
At the Windows desktop, click on Start then choose Settings and click on Control Panel. 1.
Double click the Network icon. This will bring up the “Network Configuration” window. 2.
Locate and highlight the icon with the green logo for your network adapter and click Properties. 3.
This will display the network adapter's Properties 4.
Select the Advanced tab and click Connection Type (this may also appear as Media Type, Connection
Speed, Mode, Link Speed, etc). The current Default value should be set to "Auto sense" or "Auto".
5.
Change the value of this option to 10Base−t, half duplex mode (usually the lowest possible option).
The wording of this value may also vary, depending upon the make and model of the Network
Adapter. Other possibilities include 10T half, 10Mb half duplex, 10Mbps half, etc.
6.
Once this has been changed, click OK to return to the Network configuration screen 7.
Click OK again and Windows will ask to restart your computer. Click “Yes” to restart.


Windows 2000/XP
Go to Start click on Run and type in control ncpa.cpl 1.
Double click on the Local Area Connection that controls your network card. 2.
Click Properties under Local Area connection status. 3.
Click the Configure button. Then, click on the Advanced Tab. 4.
Click Connection Type (this may also appear as Media Type, Connection Speed, Mode, Link Speed,
etc). The current default value should be set to "Auto sense" or "Auto".
5.
Change the value of this option to 10Base−t, half duplex mode (usually the lowest possible option).
The wording of this value may also vary, depending upon the make and model of the Network
Adapter. Other possibilities include 10T half, 10Mb half duplex, 10Mbps half, etc.
6.
Click OK after you made the change then click Close. 7.
Reloading the firmware
First, hold the reset button located on the back of the router for 30 seconds. 1.
Next, to test communication between the Router and the network card: Go to Start, and select Run.
Type in command and press (Enter). This will bring up the MS−DOS prompt window.
2.
Type ping 192.168.1.1 and press (Enter) 3.
You should get the following results: 4.
Pinging 192.168.1.1 with 32 bytes of data: ·
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time<10ms TTL=128 ·
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time<10ms TTL=128 ·
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time<10ms TTL=128 ·
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time<10ms TTL=128 ·
Once you get these replies, close out of the command prompt by typing in exit and pressing (Enter). 1.
Double click on the firmware file that you downloaded in Step 2. The “Firmware Upgrade Utility”
will open.
2.
Click Next and type in the routers “IP Address” (192.168.1.1 is the default address of the router) and
type in the “Router’s Password” (admin is the default password for the router).
3.
Once you confirm the settings (click Next), click Upgrade to start the firmware upgrade process. The
upgrade will take about 1 to 2 minutes.
4.
Once the upgrade is complete, the router's Diag light (or Power light) should no longer be blinking. 5.
Note: Be sure to go back to your network card settings (from the steps above) and change the speed of the link
back to “Auto sense” or “Auto” (the original default setting) to restore full speed to the adapter.

[Staren]

Ya, it's not happenig. Tried to use TFTP to force a firmware flash, but attempting to send the .bin file to 192.168.1.1 says "Can not get response from server". Set my NIC to 10Mbps Half Duplex, plugged the ethernet into the router only a second before attempting to send. All the little tricks the forums suggested, and still nothing. I did get a ping reply from the router before trying to flash. Though when I did ping it, TTL=64 and not 128. Not sure if that means anything or not.

[edfair]

Spent 3 hours yesterday with a friend with new Xyzel ?? DSL modem. After the 5th or 6th attempt to reach the control port and after a 5 minute wait it connected. But wouldn't talk to earthlink because of an indicated PW problem. Shoved the router back in the path and spent about 30 minutes before I got to the control port there to verify name and probable password.
This after 4 hours two weeks ago with India attempting to get them to acknowledge that the LAN port was blown on a Blastmax modem.
Tomorrow I get back to the house to trace down a phone problem that causes line 1 to ring when they get a call on line 2 and whether that is causing the modem to not link, or to link intermittently.
Doesn't help when the friend can't find the documentation where IP addresses have been stored or the sheet where I documented how his phone lines were cabled when I spent hours tracking down stuff when he wanted DSL to start with.
There are times when I feel like screaming too. Then I think back 45 years and remember having the same feelings working on equipment then. The only difference I can see is that users have become less capable of thinking for themselves. It may be that things have become more reliable and so they don't have to think most of the time, and therefore get out of practice.

[Staren]

I think what the main problem with the vast majoraty of people is that they think of this stuff like an aplience. A desktop or a router, or a network set-up to begin with, are toasters. It should just work, and when it doesn't, fixing it is too much trouble when you could just buy another.

My mom has a very interesting theory on the subject. It was this same kind of complacency and dumbing down of the population that was at least part of what started to lead us down the path to the dark ages, and why we lost so much knowledge when what we consider the ancient world went down the toilet. It gets really fun when she starts applying the theory to the myth of Atlantis, but that's for another thread.