Time to boycott JAVA?

[EzyStvy]

A Flash update "TRICKED" me into installing Chrome... I made several warning to others threads thinking there wasn't an OPT Out button.

On a different pc I finally saw the opt out button... BUT, Chrome is now my favorite browser


Way back when, I managed a High Pressure Sales retail store. We tried to force (in a nice way) everyone into a dressing room to try on anything.... The general jest - "if they are old enough to carry a wallet - they are old enough to decide what they spend their money on."

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by glc Pete, I'd advise you to stop pushing me. You have complained in the past about not being respected and it's my turn to turn the tables. I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth and I'm not trying to win any points. I'm simply rebutting what I see as an unreasonable opinion and you are jumping down my throat. Shall I close this thread?

I don't see any reason to close the thread. If I have broken a rule by making a personal attack then by all means, please advise me on that, but I don't think I did. I attacked your argument, your position.

When I complained in the past when there were clear violations to the rules when someone made a personal attack to my character. The mods here failed to recognize that violation and did not enforce the rules, so I simply pointed it out. I was NOT overly disturbed about it. My intention was to point out to the mods that the rule of personal attack was being broken. I wasn't even thinking about myself, but more of the chaos that could occur in the forums here if that kind of thing was allowed to continue. You know, nip it in the bud, before it becomes a big problem.

That's also the kind of message I'm trying to convey with this JAVA thing. I say push back a little (boycott) on those who use manipulative marketing strategies or have such unsecured products that need constant and annoying updates that include useless software that most people don't want. The intent being to nip a small problem in the bud before it becomes a bigger problem.

---pete---

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by EzyStvy A Flash update "TRICKED" me into installing Chrome... I made several warning to others threads thinking there wasn't an OPT Out button. On a different pc I finally saw the opt out button... BUT, Chrome is now my favorite browser

In this JAVA related thread, I was trying to avoid the FLASH update issue just to keep things focused on JAVA, but now that you mention FLASH, I'll go there.

I totally understand your point. You got tricked and you liked it. That's fine, but I'd venture to say you are in the minority. I can back that up by telling you that most computers I service have Google Chrome installed but when I question the owners if they use it, most tell me they don't even know what it is. This indicates to me that they got tricked into installing it. Not so bad by itself, right? I agree.

However, now Abobe has taken it to the next level. While downloading Adobe FLASH, if you don't uncheck a second box, it will HIJACK your browser making Chrome your default browser. People have paid me to fix their computer to undo the "damage" caused by these manipulative marketing techniques.

What you described above in regards to sales techniques, I consider as predatory sales methodology. As long as they have money and can be manipulated into buying something, it's ok. Well, I don't agree with that. I treat each and every customer as if they were my own family. I don't sell them services they don't need. In short, I'm honest and I have compassion for for people, especially the ones who are most vulnerable.

Unfortunately, we now live in a society where people, in general, think only of themselves and mostly in the short term. They fail to see the long term results of their actions today.

If I was successful at boycotting JAVA, I'd encourage them to drop their manipulative marketing techniques make the following changes that should help them in the long term.

* Improve JAVA's security issues even if it means a reduction in features.
Focus on security until JAVA is so secure that it requires an update only about once every 60 days.

* Stop the manipulative opt-out marketing technique and use an opt-in strategy instead. Since people have to wait for the update download and install process anyway, use that time to sell them on an option of accepting a second download of a product such as McAfee, or whatever. Then allow them to opt-in to accept it after the update is completed.

* Instead of promoting crappy programs such as the Ask Toolbar, or McAfee, go the extra mile to find apps to offer that your employees would actually install and actually use on their own computers. Then involve your employees in the selection process of which apps to offer.

See, that's what I'd consider ethical marketing.
In the long term it should pay dividends.

---pete---

[rjfvillarosa]

Originally Posted by Petef56 I can back that up by telling you that most computers I service have Google Chrome installed but when I question the owners if they use it, most tell me they don't even know what it is. This indicates to me that they got tricked into installing it.

Been there done that, so many times it hurts, especially Google Chrome and the Ask FoolBar.

[glc]

Like I said, annoying. Like what Steve said, legitimate marketing strategy. Do you boycott Best Buy because they try to sell you extended warranties?

[quartet-man]

Most people besides those of us more savvy users will just hit continue and not look at the "fine print" (be it "fine print" or not). I have seen it happen time and time again and did it myself early on. It does sort of irritate me when things like that (and receiving emails) are checked by default as does it when the buttons are colorful for the higher priced software (and Paypal goes out of their way to try to get you to intentionally or not pay by check instead of credit card), but all it takes is paying attention and maybe some education. I do understand that we get so much "free" and that sort of spoils us. The companies are generally in it to make money (nothing wrong with them getting reimbursed or profiting from their investment be it time, skill, work, money etc.)

When you get down to it, commercials try to manipulate you by getting you to replace things with new "better" upgraded things (often with the idea of being cool and using hot women etc.) , cereal companies and restaurants tried to get kids with the toys, stores will play music to get you to stay longer and many will take out clocks so you don't know what time it is and hurry out. I even knew a pharmacist who worked in a store that had a pharmacy (It rhymed with Say Mart) who was told no matter how few prescriptions she had to tell customers it would take an hour (if I remember correctly) to get the customers to shop the store which is where they got the money at. As a young man that ticked me off and had I gone there and had a prescription filled would have told the pharmacist "okay, I am going over to Target to shop and will be back" because of not liking game playing or manipulation. Essentially, we just have to be educated and careful to these tactics. It is sad though that many are "too busy", but more sad that seniors and kids are caught unaware. Even if they are educated, often will fall for the phone call scams etc. So, we just need to do what we can to help them.

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by glc Like I said, annoying. Like what Steve said, legitimate marketing strategy. Do you boycott Best Buy because they try to sell you extended warranties?

I've been boycotting Best Buys for years now. It all started when I purchased a Zoom Modem and when I attempted to return it the next day in the unopened sealed w/plastic box they wanted to charge me a 15% restocking fee. I thought that was unfair and haven't been back since. To me it was a sign of greedy or mismanaged operation. Now many years later, it turns out I was right! It probably comes down to the poor character of one man, The CEO.

Best Buy's Dunn 'Worst CEO of 2012' | MinnPost

---pete---

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by quartet-man Most people besides those of us more savvy users will just hit continue and not look at the "fine print" (be it "fine print" or not). I have seen it happen time and time again and did it myself early on. It does sort of irritate me when things like that (and receiving emails) are checked by default as does it when the buttons are colorful for the higher priced software (and Paypal goes out of their way to try to get you to intentionally or not pay by check instead of credit card), but all it takes is paying attention and maybe some education. I do understand that we get so much "free" and that sort of spoils us. The companies are generally in it to make money (nothing wrong with them getting reimbursed or profiting from their investment be it time, skill, work, money etc.) When you get down to it, commercials try to manipulate you by getting you to replace things with new "better" upgraded things (often with the idea of being cool and using hot women etc.) , cereal companies and restaurants tried to get kids with the toys, stores will play music to get you to stay longer and many will take out clocks so you don't know what time it is and hurry out. I even knew a pharmacist who worked in a store that had a pharmacy (It rhymed with Say Mart) who was told no matter how few prescriptions she had to tell customers it would take an hour (if I remember correctly) to get the customers to shop the store which is where they got the money at. As a young man that ticked me off and had I gone there and had a prescription filled would have told the pharmacist "okay, I am going over to Target to shop and will be back" because of not liking game playing or manipulation. Essentially, we just have to be educated and careful to these tactics. It is sad though that many are "too busy", but more sad that seniors and kids are caught unaware. Even if they are educated, often will fall for the phone call scams etc. So, we just need to do what we can to help them.

I agree with all the above and I applaud you for recognizing the pharmacist's manipulative marketing strategy bucking back a bit.

As for JAVA, it probably comes down to this... They probably get paid by McAfee and Ask per the number of downloads. This means they profit each time they release a new update. So the more people they can trick into downloading the more money they make. This would also give JAVA a motive to never totally fix their security issues and to release updates as frequently as the public will tolerate. If we act like sheep and never buck back we can only expect more of the same garbage from them.


EVERYONE,
All I'm saying is consider all the above and join me by at least investigating the feasibility of removing JAVA from all computers you have control over or perhaps disabling JAVA in the browser.

The extension of this plan would be to submit complaints to any website or service that utilizes JAVA telling them that JAVA presents a significant (50% worse per Kaspersky Labs) security risk and the constant JAVA updates are an annoyance.

Whether we happen to agree or disagree on this issue, I appreciate everyone's participation. It's certainly been a lively thread.

Thank You all!

---pete---

[Nucious]

I hate Java, I hate Java Code. I give it my CPU so... w.e. I will continue to use it as I need it for many things...

/useless thread.

[kilgoretrout]

All this text for java!!? My two cents, the java plugin has always been somewhat dodgey. It's a pain but it's widely used in corporate intranets so a boycott is not practical. On the web, you could probably disable java and not notice its absence very much. As far as bundling java with Mcaffee antivirus, the opt out is pretty clear so it's no big deal.
As far as boycotting Best Buy, there's a whole host of reasons for doing so starting with lousy prices and service, not to mention their unethical business practices. Best Buy has been caught several times in illegal, deceptive practices by the Federal Trade Commission.

[rjfvillarosa]

I am enjoying this thread and don't want to hijack it away from the original theme, But. Yesterday I had to install PowerDVD and Yahoo messenger on a customers machine, both packages came with bundled software that I didn't want installed on my customers machine. Both packages had optout options but what they didn't tell you was even if you opted out they would still install part of the bundled junk. I stumbled across it because curiosity got the better off me and I clicked "advanced options" during installation and both packages still had parts of the bundled rubbish foolbars and home page changers checked.

[rwest]

I have learned to always click on advanced options.Just so I can verify what I'm getting and where it's going. I've seen that too manytimes in the advanced section. Multiple options selected for for you..Aahh! No not that, and certainly not that...

But those companies pay the parent for the marketing so we can have the free stuff. Otherwise; well ...it wouldn't be free.

I guess I dont mind unchecking a box than paying for java(or other free software I use)

[quartet-man]

Speaking of extended warranties, I had an associate at an Office supply store (rhymes with Office Facts ) keep pushing one after I said no to begin with. I needed the APC for church and had to hurry to get to the funeral home. He kept telling me why I should and I kept refuting. It ticked me off a bit. It was more than asking, or even letting me know why I should. Maybe some need to have things explained to them, but I know the score and had my mind made up.

[Force Flow]

Originally Posted by quartet-man Speaking of extended warranties, I had an associate at an Office supply store (rhymes with Office Facts ) keep pushing one after I said no to begin with. I needed the APC for church and had to hurry to get to the funeral home. He kept telling me why I should and I kept refuting. It ticked me off a bit. It was more than asking, or even letting me know why I should. Maybe some need to have things explained to them, but I know the score and had my mind made up.

There was probably some quota that needed to be met.

[David M]

These extended warranties (insurance policies) that retail stores push are economically foolish for the consumer. They are extremely profitable for the stores because the money you pay compared to the chance of needing the policy weighs very heavily in the stores favor. Just like the lottery, these warranties are a penalty on the people who do not understand the odds.

An Alternative to Extended Warranties | www.clarkhoward.com

An interesting story about a retail store employee pushing an extended warranty lying to Clark's wife....
Clark does not purchase extended warranties | www.clarkhoward.com

[glc]

These extended warranties (insurance policies) that retail stores push are economically foolish for the consumer.

Not always. Read the comments on the second linked article. Each offer should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

[Force Flow]

Originally Posted by glc Not always. Read the comments on the second linked article. Each offer should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

I tend to get extended warranties for laptops, HDTVs, and high-end audio equipment if the cost of 3 (or 5) years of coverage is less than 1/4 of the purchase price.

[David M]

Isn't the price of a laptop after three to five years only a small fraction of its original price? So I don't understand insuring something at a 1/4 of original price for something that is worth less than that three to five years later.

Depreciation is a cost that is not covered by insurance.

[David M]

Originally Posted by glc Not always. Read the comments on the second linked article. Each offer should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

He said it can make sense for cars or home purchases but not for electronics or appliances.

[Force Flow]

Originally Posted by David M Isn't the price of a laptop after three to five years only a small fraction of its original price? So I don't understand insuring something at a 1/4 of original price for something that is worth less than that three to five years later. Depreciation is a cost that is not covered by insurance.

Most laptops and HDTV's are coming with 1-year warranties.

The 1/4 was just a number I picked out of thin air. Usually the warranty costs around $30-$100.

Also, I've found that things don't usually break down until year 2 or 3. So the extra $50-$100 for the warranty beats paying out of pocket for a repair or paying for a new product at full price.