chemicals Found

[Byte 2.0]

Ok, they found the smoking Gun, they are flying samples to the US.

Souce CNN news.

[avx]

bout time...

[Byte 2.0]

Also, I don't want any help or assistance from France, France has been sittin on the Side lines waiting for something to happen. Offering to help if Saddam used chem or Bio weapons.

Let them continue to sit there, we have already done the work, and we don't need them to come in behind and help reconstruct.

The UN has has over 10 years to find his chem/bio weapons, we knew he has Chem weapons in 1988 when they used them, why do other countries find it so hard to believe that he would have them now. Stands to reason that He would have better ones.

[avx]

I agree...I think America should take a "Forgiven but never forgotten" stance with France. Just let us finish our job and things can get back to normal...

Like messing with their heads...everytime they need something they will always be thinking about how bad the screwed up now, while they are asking the US for it, and with a smug look the US will agree to help in anyway it can. Thats how you operate with style and sophistication...LoL

[Strider]

France has always had a reluctancy to get involved, that is why they failed so miserablely in WWII and they still don't get it even after 60+ years. I firmly believe history does repeat itself if you don't take action to stop it. While I didn't agree with this war (Still have some of my doubts) , I am still glad to be an American and that there is a reason that we elect our leaders to make decisions that we would not take or would be afraid to take. I do think this French thing is being overblown, the French have their opinions and should be respect even if we don't agree with them, plus Germany, Russia, and China also would have vetoed a U.S/Great Britian Resolution if it was brought to a vote, so they weren't the only ones.

[mr krinkle]

Strider I agree on the france part of your post,All of this France bashing has not done us any good,We look like asses and a bully really.

I mean some yahoo's in Congress even took French Fries off of the menus in the Diners of Congress. Remember folks France was with us in Gulf War one and had peace keepers in Bosnia when We didnt.

[TimPoet]

France may have been right in the past sometime but they are wrong now.

[mr krinkle]

I just heard TimPoet that the white powder found could be GW's lost stash.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by Strider France has always had a reluctancy to get involved, that is why they failed so miserablely in WWII and they still don't get it even after 60+ years. I firmly believe history does repeat itself if you don't take action to stop it. While I didn't agree with this war (Still have some of my doubts) , I am still glad to be an American and that there is a reason that we elect our leaders to make decisions that we would not take or would be afraid to take. I do think this French thing is being overblown, the French have their opinions and should be respect even if we don't agree with them, plus Germany, Russia, and China also would have vetoed a U.S/Great Britian Resolution if it was brought to a vote, so they weren't the only ones.

Wait, FRANCE was reluctant to get involved in WW2? France was the FIRST nation (along with Britain) to declare war on Germany, it was the US that took years longer to decide to enter the war.

France's major problem with WW2 was they expected their enemies to attack them where they were strong. They expected the Germans to attack the Maginot line, which was probably an impenetrable defense. But the Germans attacked through the low countries, bypassing the Maginot line, and attacking where France was weak.

[avx]

Paul are you like a history buff or something?...You know this stuff seemingly by heart man

Another thing I just remembered...Is it not true that should Hitler had been a better war strategist he very likely could have won...Right there at the end, he would have victories in the bag, but he would pull back for no reason, and against every good judgment from his advisors, giving out troops time to rescramble with allied forces and prepare for the next assault.

I always found that to be a scary though...

[Paul Victorey]

Oh, Hitler should have won. But he was so afraid that his top generals were trying to kill him (many actually were, too) that he had his best military men killed. By the end, he was dictating strategy himself, and he was a terrible strategist. In fact, every bad move that was made in the war was a result of him not listening to his generals.

His major failing points, as far as the war was concerned, were not conquering Britain (he could have easily, at one point, but chose not to push hard, which gave Britain the opportunity to rebuild its airfields and beef up the RAF) and of attacking the USSR too soon. And then of course killing or ignoring his brilliant generals.

[avx]

LoL - They didnt mention the the generals trying to kill him part in the documentary(got to love the history channel).

Everyone in Europe would be Spankin Ze Doitch...he he he

[Paul Victorey]

There was at least one attempt on his life by one of his top staff, a suitcase bomb. Most of his staff hated Hitler.

For example, Field Marshall Rommel was one of Hitler's best, but he learned, in 1943, about the existence of the concentration camps (which was actually a pretty well guarded secret, even within Hitler's military), and he came to believe that Germany must be defeated. He was actually part of a conspiricy of the military to oust Hitler and make peace with the Allies, and end the war.

He was injured in an allied raid, and a few days later, the suitcase assassination attempt happened. It wasn't actually Rommel's group that moved against him (there were more than once group of consiprators trying to oust Hitler) but Rommel's defeatist attitudes were known to Hitler, and Rommel was forced to commit suicide (his death was originally blamed on the wounds from the allied raid).

[TimPoet]

Originally posted by mr krinkle I just heard TimPoet that the white powder found could be GW's lost stash.

*sigh*

[mr krinkle]

Tim for whats it worth I heard he didnt inhale..

Paul Victorey You know your stuff,You have to be a history major.

[Longbow]

Paul Victorey, your knowledge on this subject is extensive my compliments to you.
I beleive the guy that planted the suitcase bomb was called Von Staffenberg, he served under Rommel in the Afrika corp, but as you quite rightly state was not part of the same group.
The Maginot line was quite an engineering feat (in it's time) but by the start or WW2 out of date, besides, France did not extend it along the border to Belgium who posed no threat, well not until it was invaded.

[Paul Victorey]

Hehe, I'm not a history major, I'm an engineer But history, especially WW2 history, was a hobby of mine for a while.

[Kubie]

Paul,

During your hobby, did you read "At Dawn We Slept" by Gordon W. Prange?

Carl

[Paul Victorey]

No, is it one I should check out?

[mr krinkle]

Paul Victorey do you consider Hitler to have been a genius or just insane?

[Kubie]

Paul,
I believe you would like it. Complete story of before and after Pearl Harbor.
Mr Prange did an excellent job of providing sources for his work.

Carl

[Byte 2.0]

Hitler was by no means a genius. That war could have turned out very different had it not been for Hitler.

[avx]

Hitler was the worst war stategist in history, but only cause he let his paranoia dictate his actions(Thanks Paul). But when it came to motivation and persuasion...he was one of the most dangerous in history...

[StuartW]

Some people are comparing Saddam Hussein with Hitler, but it should be remembered that Hitler was not a dictator, but an elected leader of the Nazi party. When he stood against Hindenburg in the 1932 presidential elections he gained over 13 million votes out of a total of 32 million. Hindenburg who was duly elected as President thought very little of Hitler at the time, only to appoint him Chancellor in 1933.It is interesting to speculate that had not Hitler become Chancellor, would world war 2 have happened. In the defence of Hindenberg who was 82 at the time,he was seeing the virtual collapse of Parliamentary government, and inpending civil war. A sizeable majority of German people supported Hitler, which allowed the Nazi party to grow into a very real threat to world peace.
It just shows that even a democratic country, with parliamentary elections,can,with the consent of the people,become a very real threat to world stability.
What is worrying is that even if democracy is introduced into Iraq, there is a danger that the Iraqi people could well elect a leader just as dangerous as Hitler.

[avx]

Another interesting fact - Hitler orignally wanted to be a painter, but all he got was criticism...if someone actually bought 1 of his painting, would WW2 have happend?? Thats the truly mind blowing question

Saddam had an election too didnt he...We all know how that went...and why...

Hitler and his Nazi party only made up about 10% of the German population...but his intimidation tactics and ruthlessness caused people to be more afraid than to act...Im not 100% sure but hadnt he already established the Nazi part before his actualy campaigne?? Paul??? Hard to make up your mind when you got the G police right behind you....

[Paul Victorey]

No, actually, the Nazis were truly overwhelmingly popular in Germany, long before any of the secret police or later tactics. Hitler and the Nazi party easily won elections in 1933, and they were well-loved nationwide. There was no election fraud, he did legitimately win. His party was small but had massive public support. The party was established in the 1930s, most of his more cruel tactics, which themselves were democratically done (the Reichstag passed them into law in the usual fashion) didn't occur until after they had secured power. And he was incredibly popular for most of his time ruling Germany; the Germans didn't know about concentration camps, and he made incredible progress on rebuilding Germany after WW1, so most of the people loved him.

Hitler did, though, exceed the powers granted to him as Chancellor, although he did become dictator democratically -- the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act in 1933 granting him essentially limitless power.

Hitler was not a military genius, but he was, in many ways, brilliant. He was a master at persuasion and at knowing how to lead. He was insane, as well, of course, but he was one of the most charismatic and influential leaders of all time.

I also think WW2 was inevitable. Hitler had a lot of power, but he had it because his policies (rearming Germany, recovering from the debt, and improving the lives of Germans) was exactly what everyone wanted. The people were ready for a strong leader to rise up and give them a war, and he was the leader that did.

Germany is not the only place a democratic republic has committed atrocities. Rwanda was much the same, likewise the most recent set of genocides in Yugoslavia.

[avx]

Ive seen like 2 documentaries where they have both stated that only 10-15% of the German poupulation was actually part of the Nazi Party...Hell I even think I tool a test with that question on it...This is why I hate school..its either wrong, against the genrerl knowledge, or exaggerated...why the hell did I got for 15yrs just to be minsinformed...?

[TimPoet]

Originally posted by avx487 This is why I hate school..its either wrong, against the genrerl knowledge, or exaggerated...why the hell did I got for 15yrs just to be minsinformed...?

To be indoctrinated by the liberal agenda.

[Jackblack]

"We don't hate America. We just think your president is an asshole."
-- unidentified Frenchman, who still enjoys free speech

[Kubie]

jackblack,

The feelings are really, really mutual!!

Carl