France and Gemany and the UN

[Byte 2.0]

Ok, I was listening to the news this morning and heard that France and Germany want the reconstruction to be oversaw by the UN(said they want a big part in it)..

As Far as I am concerned, they should not be part of the Reconstruction, They had their chance, now that time has pasted. They really had no interest. But in the reconstruction there is a chance for them to make a profit and I hope they don't get a chance.

[ktkendall]

As i had posted this on another thread concerning the war::
It's surely a strange state of affairs when you have France calling US arrogant and Germany doesn't want to fight....

[AlwaysUp]

When these two countries and also Russia are as complicit as they have been proven to be in there circumvention of the international sanctions on Iraqi shipments of defensive materials, it is the ultimate irony that they are demanding UN oversight reconstruction. The UN must first address these despicable acts while all the while shouting to let the inspections continue! What a farce.

[avx]

Sorry if I am not understanding as some of you...I dont really keep up on the war beyond "Are we winning?" and "How mnay soldiers are dead?" Then my interest drops...So what you guys are saying is "We did all the work, we cleared out the enemy, risked our soldiers lives, and recieved nothing but criticism and negative attitudes from our "Allies"...and now that we have done all that...they are demanding a say in how Iraq is rebuilt, including goverment, and resources and what not?

Is that right?

[Paul Victorey]

byte, it's also selfish to put US pride above the best interests of the people of Iraq. The reconstruction should be done by whomever has the most chance of doing it properly, because this is a VERY delicate situation, and the slightest mistake could be disasterous.

Personally, I don't think either the US or the UN have very good chances at creating a stable nation, but regardless, the past actions of members shouldn't matter; whichever group has best chances of successfully creating a stable Iraq should do it.

[avx]

The US is the strongest, and most stable nation in the world, atleast going by what I see and know...

So how can it be considered selfish to think the US should do it?? We have the best track record in my opinion.

[Paul Victorey]

I don't think we have a very good track record for ruling other nations... Germany and Japan were really our only successes. Japan, in fact, was a surprising success, so there is some good work we've done in the past. Korea, though, was a nightmare (the US military government was NOT a very good one), and Afghanistan's provisional government is about as strong as an emaciated gnat.

Strength and stability are good, but strength can't solve all problems. We can't kill ethnic hatred with a bullet nor buy peace with money. I think the US has an excellent opportunity to play a strong advisorial and financial role, but I think the rest of the Middle East needs to have a strong hand in the reconstruction. It would help diffuse the overwhelming anti-American attitude throughout the whole Middle East, and other Arabs/Muslims could perhaps better bridge the ethnic groups than an outsider. Plus, it helps make it look less like a foreign occupation and more like friendly cooperation.

I definately think we have a role to play, and an obligation to the people of Iraq, but we also need to recognize that although we excel in many areas, we are not always the right nation for every job, so we should utilize the talents of all the world.

In fact, France brings a lot to the table in that they are well-loved throughout all the Arab world; a recent poll in 5 countries named Chirac the most popular world leader among Arabs. Just having him associated with the reconstruction would be a huge public relations benefit, even if he's not very popular here.

[avx]

I think the US has an excellent opportunity to play a strong advisorial and financial role

Why is America always the one voted to fit the bill?? "Yeha....US, go do all the work, clear out the enemy...then give it 1million dollars so they arnt mad, and can rebuild, and then give us 5 million so we can put politicians in there so things go smooth...."

When was that vote Chirak taken?? While Im sitting here watching Iraqi's hug and kiss our soldiers and give them flowers...Im thinking they dont mind us that much at all...I might even venture as far as to say they appriciate us being there.

NAHHH...Im sure they like french people much better...the errogance, the willingness to do absolute jack**** while AMERICA liberates them from their psycho dictator...

[Paul Victorey]

The poll was taken last week, although not in Iraq; it was done in Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon.

It was encouraging to see that at least some of the Iraqis are happy to see us, and I hope that attitude will prevail.

But there's always been a lot of anti-American sentiment in Iraq. From the point of view of many in Iraq, we put Saddam in power, we supported him, even when he gassed his own people. Then we attacked them, did a ton of damage, imposed a decade or more of sanctions on their nation resulting in overwhelming poverty, then attacked again. There are many in Iraq who despise us, and will work against us even if they harm themselves by doing so.

I think we should do our best, but we have to be cautious about optimism. Both Saddam and Bin Laden had once been our allies, they both promised a permanent friendship with the US, and I don't think either of them lived up to the expectations we had of them.

[AlwaysUp]

Remember the circumstances under which we put our support behind Iraq. Your 20/20 hindsight is NOT an especially awe inspiring gift. It is easy to look back with a critical eye. The events are in the PAST. A truely unique gift would be to see the future results of your decisions ahead of time. Alas we are only able to postulate. Pardon me but my assumptions throughout the buildup to intervention and Thank you Lord; the relatively quick toppling of the regime, have resulted in another belief I held. Iraqi's enmass are welcoming the fall of Sadam. What were your expectations for the war three weeks ago, Paul?

[AlwaysUp]

If your expectations were a long, protracted fight could you just give a little hope in your future expectations to a successful implementation of Iraqi self governance and a speedy return of our troops? Surely we can further this cause by projecting a positive and hopeful voicing of this end. One thing I am very worried about is that there is NOT enough emphasis on completing the stabilization of Afganistan. I hope we are not going to forget the promises we have made there. I suspect that we have already started to move our focus too far from that important undertaking.

[morriswindgate]

The UN, France, Germany and Russia are out to steal the riches of IRAQ and leave the people worse off than with Sadaam. The people in the slums of the westbank are a huge UN success, don't you agree as that is who put them there. THe French have raped just about every country that they ever help administer, from Vietnam to Somolia, and of course these places are paradise. The Russians have not had any successs building countries, destroying them yes, but building no. ANd it is the same for the Germans.
The fact is that the ammunition stocks, which must be turned over every couple of years to remain reliable, have came from these three countries in direct violation of the Liberal's much beloved UN. So under the UN's own resolutions these three countries should be sanctioned and not allowed to participate in the rebuilding of Iraq. Not to mention the the soldiers killed and wounded were hit with bullets or shells from these countries.

[Paul Victorey]

Originally posted by AlwaysUp If your expectations were a long, protracted fight

Actually, I said from the beginning that getting Saddam out would be easy, and that dealing with the aftermath would be hard.

As I said before:
On Mar. 23:

Hussein will be easy enough to get rid of, but it will NOT be easy to eliminate racism or tribal hatred, and get three mutual enemies to agree to coexist peacefully under one government.

On Mar. 26:

And compared to the sheer difficulty of rebuilding Iraq, getting Saddam out is by far the easy part.

Also, it didn't need any special foresight on our part to know Saddam was a problem, we knew he was using illegal biological and chemical weapons as early as 1983, but yet we still sent Rumsfeld to strengthen our ties with Iraq, even as we knew he was violating international law. In 1988, when Iraq gassed the Kurds, we still did nothing, in fact, Reagan killed an attempt by Congress to impose sanctions on Iraq.

[Joeberg]

As for the reconstruciton of Iraq, really how do they plan to do this? Iraq consists of Kurds, Sunite Muslims and Shiite Muslims, and Christains. Although it would be unpractical to break the country in four, the seperation of the groups may prove good in the re-construcion of Iraq. Look at India. It had been one, inwhich Hindus and Muslims lived in one place. This led to much conflict between the two groups and then Britain came and seperated India into a smaller India and a new country; Pakistan, of which most Muslims reside in. Maybe this shou;d be considered in the reconstruction. I really hope all goes well......Just my two cents....