General programming

[artsapimp]

I am not a programmer

Good, now that that's obvious to everyone I'll start my question. I am interested in starting some basic programming but have also found that college isn't for me. I know some basic VB but not too much. I'm not sure what I want to make, but would like to play with each language a little to get a feel for everything.

Could you please give me a basic project to try or idea of what each language can do. Thanks. I will purchase Visual Studio if necessary.

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[Paul Victorey]

If you want to learn programming, I'd recommend the "Teach yourself <name> in <number> days" series of books. I've read the C++ and CGI books, both start out at ground zero level, and get to a reasonable level, without being too hard.

The books have sample projects and the like in them. Only problem on most languages like C or C++ is that you'd need a compiler, and they can be pricey...

I still use an ancient Borland compiler originally for win 3.1 because I can't afford a new one...

------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.

[Felix]

God, it really depends on what you want to do.

• If you have some Basic / VB experience, forget all Pascal / Delphi stuff.
  
  
• If you have already some Pascal experience, go with Delphi.
  
  
• If you want to do some sophisticated, graphic intensive, very fast stuff, then go with Visual C++.
  
  
• If you want to make a hardware driver, go with C++.
  
  
• If you want to just play a bit around or make some nice little custom-made utilities, then IMHO there's no way but Visual Basic. It's easy to learn and it's really powerful yet.
  
  
• If you want to make a professional data base front end, then go with Visual Basic. It is really strong in any data base access.
  

I cannot code in C++ and Pascal / Delphi bores me. So I do all my coding in Visual Basic, and I like the smooth, "english-like" syntax which is nearly non-cryptic.

IMHO more important than what language to use is a good project preparation:

• What am I going to do?
  
• What does the user input?
  
• What does my app process with the data?
  
• What is the output?
  
• What steps are required to led the user to the solution he wants?
  
• How to arrange those steps on some windows?
  
• Scribble for your windows.
  
• What data structures will I need?
  
• Define your data structures now - on paper.
  

Now you can start coding:

• Create your main window
  
• Create your database, if needed (with Access, Excel or similar)
  
• Test every bit of code just after writing it. Otherwise debugging will get impossible.
  

Another thought: In earlier times, a program used dumb data and smart code to acces the dumb data. Nowadays, the question is "how do I create smart data so that it is sufficient to use dumb code ?" [image removed]

Example:
You have a table with, say, 4 columns:
ID / name / city / amount of $ spent

Task:
Sort the table alternatively by ID / by name / by city / by amount.

Ancient solution:
In "Commodore 64" times, you made an array
Dim MyTable(0 to 1000, 0 to 3)
and then you implement a sophisticated sort algorythm.

In "DOS / Qbasic" times, you made an array of user defined data type
Type MyRecordType
ID as integer
Name as string*30
City as string*30
Amount as double
End Type
Dim MyTable(0 to 1000) as MyRecordType

And then you had to implement the sophisticated sort algorythm as well.

Today solution:
With visual Basic, prepare an excel table or an access table containing all your data (e.g. a table with 4 columns, see above)

Then whithin VB, you create a recordset and simply set its sort property to whatever you want. That's all. Bill Gate does sorting for you. [image removed] Cool, isn't it?

That way, with VB you can set up a data base browser in less than 10 minutes!!! Show me that in any other language.
[image removed]

---

Somewhere in the web I found a funny comparison of some programming languages [image removed]Here: The Programmer's Quick Guide to the Languages Have fun!! [image removed]


[This message has been edited by Felix (edited 09-04-1999).]

[Edited by drisley to remove images causing pop-up - 8/1/2002]

[artsapimp]

Thank you very much for your help everyone.

Paul,
I will check out those books. I do have a teach yourself visual basic in 24 hours html based tutorial that I've read and really enjoyed. I will probably get a few more.

Felix,
You lost me with the comodore 64 thing, but thanks for trying. I've played with visual basic and made a simple program including command buttons, labels, tabs, and a date diff. script. It's being used at AAA national headquarters right now, even though it's very easy to make. I will probably get into C++ since that sounds fun, but should I try C first?

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[artsapimp]

BTW - If you notice in Wohoo!!! I just got Visual Studio 6 Enterprise. I'm ready to learn now.

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[Paul Victorey]

Although I did C before I did C++, it is probably actually easier to start with C++. Reason is that C syntax for commands, though supported in C++, is not recommended. Preferred C++ uses object oriented programming (OOP), wheras C does not have support (at least not good support) for this. So if you start out in C you tend to pick up bad habits, especially as every "preferred" input or output function in C++ is completely different from the equivalent C command. And as C++ should preferably use only OOP, and as C does not, the ways that variables and functions are used in the two languages differs significantly.

If you want to learn C++, but would prefer a slightly easier language to learn syntax, do Java. It's basically a lot like C++, though there are a few major changes.

One reason it can be good to go from Java to C++ is that Java is strongly typed, wheras in C or C++ you can do all kinds of crazy things that you probably should not do by mismatching types of objects. Java will force you to be honest and convert types explicitly, a good habit. Another good advantage to Jave is that all Java programs must be OOP. Unlike C or C++, functions and variables MUST be within an object or a class (a class is like the blueprint from which objects are built). If you want to do OOP in C++, which is the preferred method of C++ coding, being forced to do it all the time whilst learning Java really gets you into the proper mindset.

------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.

[artsapimp]

Thanks Paul, I guess I'm now changing from C++ to Java. Visual J++ is Java right? I think that came with Visual Studio 6? I'll have to try that one then. Is there anyplace you know I can learn a little online? I'd like to browse before I try a program. Thanks

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[Paul Victorey]

Visual J++ is Microsoftized Java; basically Sun's Java with some other stuff added, I believe.

I don't know much about compilers/editors -- my C++ compiler is an old Borland compiler I bought secondhand, my Java interpreter (I have no compiler) was free because I was a student at the U of W...

------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.

[artsapimp]

I tried to find some basic tutorials to see if C++ is too confusing and found www.cprogramming.com where I downloaded a couple. It uses

iostream.h
conio.h
int
cout
cin

a lot. I was hoping someone would know of a place or have some reference that translates them to laymens terms so it will make more sense to me.

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.


[This message has been edited by artsapimp (edited 09-05-1999).]

[Paul Victorey]

Ok, the .h files are header files. In C (but not C++?), it is necessary to "prototype" all functions. This tells the compiler what form they need to be in (i.e. what arguments they take, and what they return). Header files also define useful constants. Any program will have a few generic header files included in it, and many people (like me) write their own, as a place to keep function protoypes and constants out of the rest of the code.

cin and cout are streams, by default cin is the keyboard and cout the monitor. You use a syntax similar to the dos redirect ">>" command to use these.

int is a basic type, an integer. Every variable has a type; some are of user-definable types.

For example, I could define a class named MyClass, and create an object named myObject of that type by the command

MyClass myObject;

If you see a line like this:

int c;

It means "Create a variable, of type int (integer), named c.

You can also specify an initial value for a variable, like so:

float myResult = 0.0;

This says to create a variable, of type float (floating point), named myResult, and initialize it with the value 0.0.


HTH

------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.

[artsapimp]

Thanks for the help and the quick response. I have made it through 8 tutorials now and have a pretty good idea of what to do. I'm going to try a program or 2 tonight and see how it goes.

I know in VB there is the "hello world" program that everyone starts with, is there a starter program for C++?

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[Paul Victorey]

Yes, the "Hello World" is a C++ thing too.
I forget exactly how it goes (my compiler is messed up at the moment) but I think this should work:

#include "stdiostr.h"

void main(void){
cout << "Hello World";
}


------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.

[Paul Victorey]

The info in the last post will work, however it is preferred to use iostream.h instead of stdiostr.h, which is provided as a kind of hybrid of new and legacy functions...

The actual "Hello World" program is, with comments by me:


#include "iostream.h"
// iostream.h has the definition for the i/o stream "cout" we use

void main(void){
//main has no parameters and returns nothing

cout << "Hello World";
//send the string "Hello World" to stream cout

}//end main

------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.


[This message has been edited by Paul Victorey (edited 09-05-1999).]

[artsapimp]

Ok, I understand that. Just aa a verification of basic programming differences, you don't use sub programs like VB when using C++? Should this be put under the properties of a command button or label or anything like that? Or will it be the same as a msgbox function in VB? That's where I'm confused I think.

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[Paul Victorey]

No, the prog I sent is a DOS program.

A windows program would be quite a bit more complicated in terms of overhead. I have a few skeleton programs I once wrote that I now use for all my stuff, I'll see what happened to those...

Just looked at them, they're worthless...

Hacked togther code, mostly. I did them when I first started C++, so they are very C-like in nature. I plan to recreate some skeleton programs once I bring all my reference books back to school...


------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.


[This message has been edited by Paul Victorey (edited 09-05-1999).]

[artsapimp]

I just found a site that is in English! I love it. For future reference if you need to send someone for basic C++ help send them to http://computers.iwz.com.

It explained the simplist forms of everything including the reason behind cout and cin.


cout-"c" for C programming and "out" for
output.
cin-"c" for C programming and "in" for input.


If everything were taught that simple it would be a simple language I'm sure. Thanks again for all the help, I'll let you know how the programs I make tonight go.

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[Paul Victorey]

You can do C++ win programming, but I wouldn't recommend it for any but the highly experienced programmer. Once you figure out how to do it, it's not terribly bad -- but the learning curve is HARSH!

Although last time I tried to learn it (and did, though I forgot most of it) I was 15, maybe now when I approach it again I'll have an easier time with it.

DOS progamming is so much easier

Congrats on your start in C++ programming! I'm sure you'll have fun with it -- it's a very powerful language!

------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.

[Felix]

I agree; IMHO DOS programming is good for learning the basics. Though, while programming for DOS you have to handle all the input / output / user interface stuff at your own. I found out that up to 75% of my DOS program code does only i/o stuff, e.g. screen and keyboard interaction with the user.

- Well, of course it is also possible with less, but a white blinkin' cursor on a black screen in the top left corner of the screen is not really a user interface, isn't it?

That's why I love Visual Basic: It handles the i/o stuff for me, providing
a handy-dandy, nice looking Win32 GUI, and lets me concentrate on solving my task.

[Paul Victorey]

Wow, I think I could like VB in that case... I hate doing GUI programming. Although with many win programs, you can get away with writing the GUI code once, write only GUI code, save it and use it as a skeleton file for every future program.

Only problem is for the stuff I program I really need the power that C++ gives. Outside of DOS assembly language (which is a nightmare, though I've written programs in it, and used it to reverse-engineer programs as well) nothing I've seen has the power and flexibility of C++.

------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.


[This message has been edited by Paul Victorey (edited 09-06-1999).]

[artsapimp]

I do understand that the learning curve will be pretty tough, but I'd like to see a basic idea of how it works. Does anyone have any idea of where I could learn some of it online?

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[Paul Victorey]

I'd recommend buying a book, one specifically for your compiler. Most compilers have their own functions that can make the GUI tasks simpler. Look for something on windows programming, with the compiler you have.

------------------
Paul M. Victorey
------------------
I am not responsible for any problems that may arise as a result of following my advice. This includes, but is not limited to, computer failure, loss of data, nuclear war, famine, boils, no clean laundry, your daughter running off with a biker gang, or armageddon. Take my advice at your own risk.

[David_Hoffman]

I just took a Java course and thoroughly enjoyed the style of the language. Since it is so similar to C++, I think that will be my next interest.

I do recommend learning at least some Java because it has an advantage that (I belive) no other modern, OOP language has: major portability. Because it is interpreted, and not fully compiled, a java applet or application can run from basically any system platform or OS: PC, Mac, Unix, etc.

Good luck in your coding everyone.

[artsapimp]

Everything worked great. I didn't know all C++ programs ran on that little dos window. I just new I wanted to make one. I made a few that asked for your age and then replied with some comments depending on what it is. I then made one where you input 3 numbers and it'll give you the average.

I'll be making millions in no time won't I? lol

Thanks again Paul

------------------
If you think an education is expensive...try ignorance.

[Felix]

Well, at least it shoul do so... Fact is, that some java internet banking software which is made pretty good, is running on PC-webbrowser but not on Mac-webbrowsers. It crashes on the Mac. The IT section of that bank tried to fix it for over a year and then gave up.

So be careful with that portability stuff. Re-check on each platform. It seems that "cross-platformity" is only a claim sometimes.

[This message has been edited by Felix (edited 09-07-1999).]