what is difference between DVD+R and DVD-r

[wilbasket23]

what is the difference between DVD+R and DVD-r

[RJ]

DVD-R is older, developed by Pioneer, and only available as single layer (4.37 GB).
DVD+R is newer, developed by the DVD+RW alliance, and available as single layer (4.37 GB) and dual layer (7.95 GB), just like a DVD-ROM.

Both are write once.

Because Pioneer didn't give up DVD-R we have both formats around. Technically there is a difference, but for the PC use the is none.

RJ

[EzyStvy]

DVD Formats Explained

[Kov-Ice]

Another difference (and I think RJ told me this) is that +R discs can be changed when written so that they are seen as ROM discs, while -R cannot. This makes the +R discs able to be read by just about any DVD drive or player without a problem. Many older players will read only one type or the other, but changing the disc's booktype to ROM gets around that.

[wilbasket23]

what is a boottype

what does it use for

how to change boottype

[RJ]

booK type, not boottype.

That is what Kov-Ice said.
And you need a burner that is capable of booktype changing.

RJ

[Kov-Ice]

Lite-On burners, for example, have an ability to change the booktype of a DVD+R disc. You can download a very simple program from their website, run it once, and then when you burn discs it will ensure that the booktype of the +R discs are from then on seen by other drives as ROM. This makes them compatible with most all players. Very handy trick.

[SonicVanguard]

I would like to clarify a few things.

The 'original' DVD format which has is now incorrectly termed 'minus' was originated by the DVDForum, comprised of over 100 companies - many of whom are now apart of the DVD+Alliance. The DVD+Alliance was formed with companies like Philips, TDK and others wanted the royalty payments changed from a per disk basis to a per burn basis. They saw home users as a huge user base that would take advantage of the new '+' format's flexability. There was one problem with that theory - Hollywood was not EVER going to change how they mastered their DVDs - and Hollywood uses the book format created by the DVDForum - commonly referred to as the minus format (the minus is actually just a dash).

Which is better? They both have their good and bad points. You can basically look at it this way: If you are planning on creating movies to be viewed in a stand-alone consumer DVD player, use the 'minus' format. If you intend to use the DVD to hold a load of data or to view DVD's on a computer, the + format is a good way to go. One thing is for sure, get a multi-format burner.

Dave.

[Kov-Ice]

Sonic, I thought all commercial DVDs were booked as ROM discs to ensure compatibility. The two formats aren't as big an issue anymore, because most players made in the last year or two accept both formats. However, older players tend to be picky. My Sony players will not play -R discs reliably at all. The Toshiba players at my school will not play +R discs reliably. When I began using the booktype trick on the +R discs, tho, it has tricked the school players everytime.

[SonicVanguard]

Commercial DVD's are ROM discs - regardless of how they are booked. And sure, the trick will work with the '+' format to play on older players. But there are still compatability issues - especially with Toshiba - they are the one company that really has stuck to their guns about not straying from the '-' format. Afterall, they are the primary patent holder.

Dave.

[Kov-Ice]

Originally Posted by SonicVanguard Commercial DVD's are ROM discs - regardless of how they are booked.

Don't they start out as either + or - , depending on their manufacturer? Both can then be booked to be read as ROM when burned, commercially or otherwise, right? The real difference seems to me that the +Alliance has released to the public their method for booking DVDs as ROM, while the -Forum has not. I would think that makes the +R discs more attractive overall. Shrug...

[RJ]

Don't they start out as either + or - , depending on their manufacturer?

No. The commercial DVD-ROMs are pressed, not burned. The + and - difference does only apply for the blank media.

The pressed DVDs are DVD-ROM, and also booktyped DVD-ROM. Every DVD player is designed to play them back.
That's why a DVD+R with DVD-ROM booktype can trick the player. The phycical compatibility is extremely high, and the DVD-ROM booktype tricks the firmware. So the player thinks it's a DVD-ROM and plays it back. And yes it makes DVD+R more attractive overall.

RJ

[SonicVanguard]

Originally Posted by Kov-Ice Don't they start out as either + or - , depending on their manufacturer? Both can then be booked to be read as ROM when burned, commercially or otherwise, right? The real difference seems to me that the +Alliance has released to the public their method for booking DVDs as ROM, while the -Forum has not. I would think that makes the +R discs more attractive overall. Shrug...

As RJ stated, commercially purchased DVD's are pressed discs - they are neither a + or - format. They are a ROM disc period. There is no reason for the DVDForum to release a 'method' for booking as a ROM disc - DVD-ROM is a format they created and have control over. In most ways it is identical to the '-R' format so there is no reason to 'trick' players.

The DVDAlliance is using a loophole in international trademark law to get away with the booking trick. I guess I don't see that as too attractive - they know their format is not very compatable so they capitalize on a loophole and 'steal' a formatting method.

Dave.

[Kov-Ice]

This sounds like a debate. I have little in the way of real knowledge to base any remarks upon; I'm just asking questions... I do know that even with -R discs, I experienced failures to play in quite a few older (by older I mean mfd. 2 or 3 years ago) set top players. Anymore, most players play both (save Toshiba).

So Dave, you're saying that the Forum holds license over both -R and ROM formats? Even then, what's wrong with the Alliance using a method to align their product with more players by using the ROM booking method?

[SonicVanguard]

Originally Posted by Kov-Ice So Dave, you're saying that the Forum holds license over both -R and ROM formats? Even then, what's wrong with the Alliance using a method to align their product with more players by using the ROM booking method?

Nothing - if they would pay the proper royalties. But they use a 'loophole' in the trademark/copyright to mimic the book format of the -ROM format. Part of the reason the DVDAlliance exists is because Philips and company didn't like the idea of paying royalities on each disc. They would prefer to control royalties through the purchase of burners. The problem with using a '+' format DVD to burn a -ROM complaint DVD is you've not paid any royalties on that DVD. The same holds true for any aspect of the supply chain in your purchase of that disc.

What's funny is when Pioneer started to make a dual format burner without being apart of the Alliance, Philips and company screamed that Pioneer wasn't paying proper royalties to the Alliance. Yet they don't feel proper royalties should be paid on '+' format discs used to make a -ROM compliant DVD.

Dave.

[TheJackal]

Sorry if this is seen as hijacking the thread...

...But just thought I would ask while all of the DVD experts are here...

What does it mean to "Press" a DVD (or a CD), rather than to burn it? What exactly do the do when they "Press" a disc?

[Kov-Ice]

Originally Posted by SonicVanguard The problem with using a '+' format DVD to burn a -ROM complaint DVD is you've not paid any royalties on that DVD. The same holds true for any aspect of the supply chain in your purchase of that disc.

Aww, man... Am I going to have to stop using '+' discs now? I won't cross picket lines, I pay for all my shareware... I'm going to have a comlex now.

Originally Posted by TheJackal ...just thought I would ask while all of the DVD experts are here... What does it mean to "Press" a DVD (or a CD), rather than to burn it? What exactly do the do when they "Press" a disc?

I was wondering the same thing. Dave? RJ?

[RJ]

Well, pressing (or stamping) a CD/DVD is used if you want to create a large amount of the same disc.
For that, a template will be created. I think the easiest way to think about it is like a cookie stamper. You flatten a dough, and then use these forms, stamp them into the dough and you get cookies that just look like the form. You can stamp them all over the dough, you will get many cookies that just look like the form.
Now the DVD form is similar. Data is stored on a DVD by pits and lands, as they represent 1 and 0. You just create the pits where you want them (of course while maintaining all necessary DVD-ROM rules. . or even DVD Video rules if a DVD Video is created)
Basically the DVD stamping form has pins where you want the pits and then press that form onto a disc to create the pit/land constellation you want (it actually represents the data).
You can press as many DVDs as you want, and it is a fast method. But because you need to create the form first it's only cost-effective if you produce many identical DVDs using that form. Just like the studios do.

If you want to burn a DVD, that's different. Now burning is a cost-effective method to burn a single, or a few, DVDs as you don't need the form. It takes longer, though, but that's not a problem for someone who only wants to burn a few DVDs. That's why we burn a DVD, but the studios press them.
Now the blank dvd has to carry information on it, so that the drive knows where to start to burn or how fast to burn. Along the track there is a groove that contains that information so that the blank can be burned correctly.
By burning the laser burns pits into the recording layer (the layer has to be of a special material so that this burning is possible), and where a land shall be the laser does nothing. So at the end you also have a pit/land structure on the DVD, which represents all the data on it.

RJ

[SonicVanguard]

RJ, I couldn't have said it any better.

Dave.

[TheJackal]

Where does one get the neccesary equipment to press DVDs, and how much does it cost?

[RJ]

So you think of buying a complete equipment to press DVDs ?
It's roughly about a million bucks. My example with the cookie stamper was to show in a simple way how it works, but don't expect to just have a small device to create the dvd stampers and then have a stamper, maybe as small as a dvd labeler, and stamp dvds just as easy and fast as labeling them

But well, I think you should look at this thread, it might be helpful for you:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=109916

You still wanna buy ? ( )

Anyways, if you really want pressed dvds, then the cheapest way is to look for pressing plants and inform about how much they charge. But they do it for you. All you need is a dvd or tape (or whatever it says on the website) for the premastering, then you pay the glass master (I checked one, it's between $200 and $300. . other pressing facilities should charge something similar), and you pay per pressed dvd. Price depends if it's a single layered or dual layered dvd, and how many you want. Minimum would be somewhat of 50 or 100. . . and the more you buy the less you pay per disc. On the website of a particular pressing plant I checked they also say if you buy 2000 dvds you don't pay for the glass master anymore. So you just have to check different pressing plants.

That is the cheapest you can get if you want pressed dvds. Forget about buying own equipment. . . unless you are rich and want to open your own pressing facility anyway. . then you could casually press dvds for yourself, too

While at it, let's just compare that to burning. Let's say the equipment for dvd pressing is exactly $1.000.000. For that price you can get a nice LiteOn dvd burner ($100) and burn 66.660 dual layer DVD+Rs (assuming $15 a piece), or 1.249.875 single layer DVDs (assuming $0.80 a piece). Real prices are similar to the ones I assumed for this calculation.
And the compatibility ain't really bad, is it ?

RJ

[Kov-Ice]

I've seen automated burning systems, tho. You would stack 50 or 100 discs on it, and it uses mechanical arms to put the disc in the burner one after the other. If I remember correctly, they are several thousand dollars or more.