Sneak peek at Windows 8

[Petef56]

Windows 8 demo...
Microsoft’s Windows 8 Demo From D9 (Video) – AllThingsD

Is this what you really want or need or has MS missed the mark?

---pete---

[David M]

Doesn't this remind you of when the US auto manufacturers came out with a different model each year? Their marketing departments had you brainwashed into thinking it was much better than last years model.

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by David M Doesn't this remind you of when the US auto manufacturers came out with a different model each year? Their marketing departments had you brainwashed into thinking it was much better than last years model.

Dave, all I can say is, those tactics don't work on me. I drive the same vehicle for years and years. The longer I own it and repair it myself, the better I know it and the more valuable it becomes to me.

As for Windows 8, all those changes in the user interface seem more suited for hand held devices and not for desktop computers that I use most. The big mistake I see in the new user interface is the lack of visible "controls" that would cue the average user what to touch or click on. You have to be clairvoyant (or specially trained) in order to know what to click on. This seems the trend with MS lately.

Here's just a few examples that demonstrate my point...

* Vista & Windows 7 - The START button on the task bar no longer says START. You have to be clairvoyant to know it's the START button.

* Windows 7 - Show Desktop is that tiny unmarked section of the task bar all the way to the Right. You have to be clairvoyant to know it's there.

* MS Office - The often used options to File, Save and Print are no where to be found. You have to be clairvoyant to know that they exist under the MS Office globe icon (for lack of better a name).

* Windows 7 - The Internet Connection icon in the system tray (notification area) no longer displays activity. You have to be clairvoyant to know when data is flowing over your Internet connection.

Yeah, so it looks like Windows 8 just offers more of the same. Hey, it's all fine for geeks who quickly become an integral part of their electronic technology, but not for the average human who needs to see user friendly controls to trigger in their mind what to touch or click on.

---pete---

[glc]

Pete, that's one big reason I still run XP. I like the Windows 95-style classic interface. I'm used to it, I don't need any more toys, bells, and whistles. As long as an OS supports the software I want/need to run, that's all that matters.

[David M]

I really dislike "clean" user interfaces. I do not like having to memorize how to do the most basic things. Whats going on should be right there in front of your face. You should not have to go digging around under layers of stuff in order to do what you need to do. It is pretty arrogant to expect others to have to go through the efforts to memorize how to use the user interface that you created.

Windows has always needed a "Shutdown" button right next to the Start button. It makes you wonder if Microsoft is thinking, "Why would you ever want to shut it off?...it's so wonderful!

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by David M Windows has always needed a "Shutdown" button right next to the Start button. It makes you wonder if Microsoft is thinking, "Why would you ever want to shut it off?...it's so wonderful!

That's funny and it reminds me of a recent phone support incident with one of my elderly customers who was running Vista and I was trying to explain how to shut down the computer. I swear, it took me 5 minutes or more to get him through the process. It makes me think that the developers at MS that come up with the new concepts of the Windows user interface are totally disconnected from the people that provide tech support (i.e.; the real world).

---pete---

[strollin]

Originally Posted by Petef56 ... * Windows 7 - The Internet Connection icon in the system tray (notification area) no longer displays activity. You have to be clairvoyant to know when data is flowing over your Internet connection. ...

In this case the icon now shows relative signal strength instead of indicating activity. It might be nice if it was configurable to show one or the other or, even better, if they could indicate both with the same icon.

In Win 7, I miss being able to hover over the icon to see what my link speed is (not internet speed). Now I have to bring up Task Manager and go to the Networking tab to see activity and link speed.

[Nuclear Krusader]

That's what manuals are for, so that you don't have to be clairvoyant.

[rwest]

I think it's geared towards more trendy type people. It operates and looks like phone software.

The developers aren't stupid. Redesigning something that works and works well isn't goig to sell. For a lot of users, XP is all they want or need. But with this, Microsoft is actually showing us capbilites and literally implemening them for us.

I'd bet underneath all that it's still basically NT. Shoot, a properly built XP system could propably do the same thing. That's aside from maybe needing more ram.

[Nuclear Krusader]

Whatever happened to the totally awesome new file system that was s'posed to debut with Vista, then 7...

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by Nuclear Krusader That's what manuals are for, so that you don't have to be clairvoyant.

Remember in my OP, I said; "You have to be clairvoyant (or specially trained)...". Which includes the necessity of a user manual, which also translates to user-unfriendly. Wouldn't it be wiser to make it more user friendly instead of less user friendly?

Again I do understand their motive which is to make it work with a touch screen but unfortunately desktop computers and laptops are not best suited for a touch screen user interface.

---pete---

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by strollin In this case the icon now shows relative signal strength instead of indicating activity. It might be nice if it was configurable to show one or the other or, even better, if they could indicate both with the same icon.

I have my own little theory as to why MS has been slowly dumbing down the Network Connection icon in the system tray. It all has to do with the long range plans towards cloud computing. For Cloud computing, it's in Microsoft's advantage for the user NOT to be aware when Internet activity is occurring because this is a huge shift from having everything run & stored directly on the local computer. MS most likely wants the user to be oblivious as to whether an application is being run from online and that their personal data is also stored online.

I say BEWARE! Beware that Cloud computing has some enticing advantages but the disadvantages will eventually outweigh any advantages when our personal computers become nothing more than dumb terminals and we lose the control and freedom to use our computers the way we like best.

---pete---

[Nuclear Krusader]

Pete, whether we like it or not, we all have to dedicate time to learn how to use something. Nobody is born already knowing how to work this or that. Time spent reading and learning reduces frustration, mistakes and damage to the equipment. What's wrong with that? Manuals are one of the best expressions of user-friendliness there are. Unfortunately, in order to save costs and to avoid putting off buyers who are impatient and bent on instant gratification, companies have practically eliminated printed manuals; just compare the manual that came in the box with Windows 3.x and the flyer that comes with Windows 7. This is a step backward and has only resulted in a lot of problems among which are the oversimplification of interfaces and constant changes to them.

Really, the only way to please the buyers and meet their definition of user-friendliness would be for companies to implant in their minds the knowledge of the software/device. That cannot be done.

[Extremerc12]

I wonder how much opposition Microsoft is going to encounter with Windows 8. The average non technical savy user will probably think it is the greatest thing alive but to us, I think it will just lead to more resentment towards Microsoft. Look at the most recent track record. Windows XP was in relative terms a solid operating system. When Windows Vista launched to replace XP there was a ton of opposition albeit this was probably a result of how awful the operating system was in terms of performance. Then we have Windows 7 which is my opinion is just a Windows Vista update and nothing more. In other words, Windows 7 is what Vista should have been. Microsoft seemed to listen to the issues with Vista and the demand for more streamlined XP influence. So presently, Microsoft is steaming towards what appears to be an abomination that is Windows 8. The whole tile idea works great on my Xbox (well sort of) but is relatively annoying. This idea seems like something that should be left for the next generation Xbox and mobile/tablet devices. Maybe I am completely wrong with my thought process, but if that's the product that is going to be released in 2012, then I will be staying far away.

[Nuclear Krusader]

I sympathise with those feelings. I have to point out, however, that OSes get old as technology advances and whilst it is possible to add support for some technologies to them, they eventually become too bloated and Frankenstein-like to be able to support the new tech and remain stable. The real point is whether we need the new technology.

A lot of new tech is being developed and pushed just for the sake of it (and sometimes for the heck of it) and to make companies a buck. Really, how many of us need MovieMaker, etc.? Sure, [insert example of new tech here] is cool, but is it useful?

I won't be saying ‘I'll never update’, for many times we're forced to upgrade in order to meet the needs of our work. Point in case, those of us who do design and pre-press work are married to Adobe products; if the newest version of Adobe software that we happen to need is not compatible with an older OS or runs better on the newest one, then we have to upgrade both the OS and the programs, whether we like it or not.

[Force Flow]

If something needs a manual to use--especially a UI--it's too hard to use.

If something isn't obvious, it won't be used unless discovered accidentally. However, most non-savvy users tend to be afraid of their computers and a wrong button press that would "break it".

I certainly do not like the direction of Windows development.

I actually have a Zune (which was a gift) and am forced to use the Zune software to put music onto it. It uses a very similar interface as what is shown for Windows 8. It's very difficult to use. What would normally take me 3 seconds in any other application takes me a good 10 minutes of wrangling to get working properly.

As for Windows 7, I use a combination of Classic Shell and 7 Taskbar Tweaker to get it to operate more like XP (without resorting to going all the way back to the classic interface)

[Nuclear Krusader]

Either a manual or a class. I'm mostly talking about the people who either haven't yet used or are not familiar with computers. I'm all for intuitive GUIs and exploration, but some things just need to be explained.

I don't like the direction Windows is taking.

I don't like the direction Apple is taking either.

Linux needs a manual.

Aren't we rapti regaliter?

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by Force Flow I certainly do not like the direction of Windows development. I actually have a Zune (which was a gift) and am forced to use the Zune software to put music onto it. It uses a very similar interface as what is shown for Windows 8. It's very difficult to use. What would normally take me 3 seconds in any other application takes me a good 10 minutes of wrangling to get working properly.

I agree and for me, a good user interface is all about efficiency and being user friendly or intuitive (no manuals required). Efficiency can be quantified for comparison of the old versus the new where each hand movement and each click or touch is counted and totaled. Also, if it simply takes longer to do the same task, that's pretty easy to quantify.

How about STATIC vs DYNAMIC? Microsoft seems intent on adding features to the GUI that make it automatic/dynamic and ever changing depending upon how you use the computer. It's my impression that the new Windows 8 "Start Windows Tiles" is another attempt at a dynamic approach.

Unfortunately for MS, I have found with my many customers (mostly novice to intermediate level) that they prefer a static GUI. They don't want things changing on their own or moving around because it gets confusing. Besides that, I have personally found that Microsoft's dynamic GUI often gets it wrong and then it just becomes an annoyance. In my opinion we simply need a more configurable STATIC GUI. Some examples...

* Ability to lock all the desktop Icons and save the configuration.

* Ability to instantly recall different sets of desktop icons depending upon the general type of task you are working on.

---pete---

[glc]

Ability to instantly recall different sets of desktop icons depending upon the general type of task you are working on.

Seems to me that the last time I played with Linux - and this was over 5 years ago, I might add - KDE let me have 4 different desktops with instant switching between them.

In reality, I could care less about my desktop - I don't use it. Every time I start my computer I open a full screen browser and I never even see my desktop after that. I have what I use every day in the quick launch, and if I need something else my start menu is set up the way I like it.

[Force Flow]

Originally Posted by glc Seems to me that the last time I played with Linux - and this was over 5 years ago, I might add - KDE let me have 4 different desktops with instant switching between them.

Virtual desktops...and yep, standard feature in linux. You need additional software for that feature in windows, although there was a powertoys tool available for XP.

[Nuclear Krusader]

And M$ killed the power toys. It's the only OS that lacks multiple desktops. They're useful when you have many programs running at the same time; it certainly keeps things organised.

[Force Flow]

MS didn't kill them...they're still available for download. MS just didn't continue development, just like with most of the sysinternals tools.

Although, many of them still work just fine on Win7.

Some of their features were built-in into Vista/Win7.

[David M]

What do you guys think? Will Windows 8 be their next Vista or worse yet, their next Windows Me...or can I say it?...Microsoft Bob. Maybe if we are lucky they will being back Clippy the paperclip and give him a full time job working at the desktop. "Do you need help?"...boink boink.

[Force Flow]

Who knows...probably at least a few people will like it. I wonder who their test users are...

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by David M What do you guys think? Will Windows 8 be their next Vista or worse yet, their next Windows Me...or can I say it?...Microsoft Bob. Maybe if we are lucky they will being back Clippy the paperclip and give him a full time job working at the desktop. "Do you need help?"...boink boink.

From that Windows 8 demo, I got the impression that the user can configure the GUI for the classic desktop interface, but it comes with default set to the new user interface. If that's true, I hope that MS will be wise enough to monitor how people have their GUI configured.

---pete---

[Petef56]

Originally Posted by glc In reality, I could care less about my desktop - I don't use it. Every time I start my computer I open a full screen browser and I never even see my desktop after that. I have what I use every day in the quick launch, and if I need something else my start menu is set up the way I like it.

See, each of us might be using Windows in completely different ways which is the beauty of personal computing. I could literally disconnect from the Internet and still get a good portion of my routine tasks & work done.

Typical non-Internet tasks include...

* Website design (done locally, only need Internet to upload the final design)
* Graphics design.
* Calendar & Scheduling
* Customer Ordering and Invoicing.
* Street Maps
* Calculations & planning w/MS Excel.
* Shopping lists & planning w/MS Excel
* Music recording & playback
* Bill paying and finances
* Cooking & recipe database.

Now that's just off the top of my head, the tasks I perform most often that do not require an Internet connection. I still make very good use of the old Windows concept of "Group Folders" on the desktop. For example, if I'm doing audio related tasks I open my AUDIO group folder which resides on the desktop which contains a dozen or so Icons and various shortcuts for all my audio resources.

---pete---

[glc]

You may be missing my point - I open everything full screen or maximized and never SEE the desktop - it's easier for me to use the quick launch and the start menu to open more programs rather than minimizing everything to get to the desktop. Yes, I know I can use "show desktop" but it's a pain bringing everything back up in the order I want it. I also use Taskbar Shuffle to keep my taskbar in the order I want it. I also use a lot of keyboard shortcuts - I'm not a slave to the mouse. Switch apps? Alt-Tab. Switch browser tabs? Ctrl-Tab. I'm very old school and I can get stuff done a lot quicker than most people who are clicking their mouse all over the screen.

[Nuclear Krusader]

Try WinKey-D.

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by glc You may be missing my point - I open everything full screen or maximized and never SEE the desktop - it's easier for me to use the quick launch and the start menu to open more programs rather than minimizing everything to get to the desktop. Yes, I know I can use "show desktop" but it's a pain bringing everything back up in the order I want it. I also use Taskbar Shuffle to keep my taskbar in the order I want it. I also use a lot of keyboard shortcuts - I'm not a slave to the mouse. Switch apps? Alt-Tab. Switch browser tabs? Ctrl-Tab. I'm very old school and I can get stuff done a lot quicker than most people who are clicking their mouse all over the screen.

That is really how it was designed or intended to be used. The desktop itself is not efficient. When I show people how not to use their desktop (Any version of Windows) but similar as you do, they are amazed at how wrong they have been using it. I pretty much use my desktop for reminder of what needs to be done and that is it. When I am done it get's removed from the desktop.

Linux is way better in many aspects but as mentioned, there is a learning curve.

[glc]

Originally Posted by Nuclear Krusader Try WinKey-D.

That's the keyboard shortcut for Show Desktop.........