Newbie in da house!

[KronoLeginaire]

Ok, I want to start programming for computer making programs and stuff. How should I start out? I hear Visual Basic is easy but what programs and stuff do I need?

[mosquito]

If you want to learn a good basic programming language learn java or C#. If you want to go the advanced way you can learn C++.

Visual basic is an easy language, but it is a bad language to learn programming because it teaches you bad programming habits.

For java and C# there are tons of free compilers and editors. For C# you can download the .NET framework SDK which has the compiler. If you want the gui to develop with, you need to purchase Visual Studio .NET (certainly not cheap).

[KronoLeginaire]

Ok, I'm confuised. What is all this stuff?

[doctorgonzo]

I really don't do much programming, but I program in VB. I may want to do some more programming in the future and learn other languages, so what bad programming techniques am I learning by using VB?

[Lain]

you are learning oop (object oriented programming), which seems to be the programming style of choice. Perl, C++, Java all have OOP styles.

[mosquito]

Visual basic has a very cripled version of Object Orientation implemented. You can write good OOP applications with Visual Basic, but it will be very difficult.

Another problem is that the exception handling system in Visual Basic is utter crap. Goto's are considered evil for many years now, and they are still the only way to do exception handling in Visual Basic.

But the good part of Visual Basic is that you can write a Gui in a matter of hours, and there are not many other languages that allow you that.

[doctorgonzo]

I do know that VB is not a true object-oriented programming language (I have been doing some object programming in VB, and while it isn't too hard to do, it is limited due to the lack of polymorphism, inheritability, etc.) So it doesn't sound like I am learning any bad things I didn't already know about. You are certainly right in saying it takes no time at all to write a good GUI in VB.

[mosquito]

If you already know and understand the OO principles, there is no harm in doing vb, but when it's your first language, it's not strict enough.

I have to rephrase my statement.
You can make a gui very fast (when you don't use grids).

[Iman74]

My suggestion is this:

Go on www.monsterboard.com and www.hotjobs.com
Do a search for Software Programming Jobs.
Make note of the languages desired to be known for their future employees, then take the top 3 and learn either 1 or all 3 of those languages.

[Lain]

Doesn't the new VB.NET support inheritability? I would still rather use C# t program .NET.

[aym]

Forget about vb and go to JAVA!
I know java, vb and a bit of C++, java is the best in my opinion!
BTW, java is a pure oop language.
java compiler is free and available @ http://java.sun.com
And it's not difficult at all, especially if you know the principles of OOP.

[mosquito]

C# has the same capabilities of java

[aym]

I don't know C#

[KronoLeginaire]

Here is the thing thought, i eventualy want to program for Sega Dreamcast wich is WindowsCE compatible. I'll ask the undetground Dev Community for help but what suggestions do you guys have?

[mosquito]

C++, nothing else, programming for games is almost all done in C++

[KronoLeginaire]

So, WHats the best way to learn c++?

[aym]

Why do you want to program games for a dead machine (DC)?
I use books to learn programming languages, go to Amazon , search for C++ books and buy!

Beginning Visual C++ 6

[KronoLeginaire]

Ok, thanks

[aym]

BTW, this is just an example, may be there are better books, so check carefully before buying.

[HackinCowboy]

I would say that C++ is too complex for a newbie. I would say start with Java and then move into C++. Both languages are quite similiar with Java being much easier to learn. I first started with QBasic (Long Live Nibbles!) and move into C++ and VB. Just recently I've begun learning Java and come to the conclusion that C++ would have made much more sense having learned Java first. Java wasn't really common when I began programming C++ though.

[Lain]

How is Java easier to learn than C++?

[Bajanine]

Definitely learn C++, my only other experience has been with Basic(yuck!) and Turbo pascal. The power of C/C++ is absolutely amazing! Programming GUI will take some perseverance, but it is attainable.

[aym]

Originally posted by Lain How is Java easier to learn than C++?

100% java is easier than c++!

[Lain]

wow... good explaination. Have anything else to back up the statement?

[aym]

This represents the end result of nearly 15 years of trying to come up with a better programming language and environment for building simpler and more reliable software. --Sun Microsystems cofounder Bill Joy

Java is just a small, simple, safe, object-oriented, interpreted or dynamically optimized, byte-coded, architecture-neutral, garbage-collected, multithreaded programming language with a strongly typed exception-handling mechanism for writing distributed, dynamically extensible programs. --Sun Microsystems cofounder Bill Joy

James Gosling, the father of Java, was intent on building a low-cost, hardware-independent software platform using C++. For a number of technical reasons, C++ was dropped, and a new language, called Java, was developed, based on C++, but eliminating its shortcomings. These shortcomings include problems associated with multiple inheritance, automatic type conversion, the use of pointers, and memory management.

When James Gosling retreated to his office to write the language that became Java, it was modeled after C and C++. The object-oriented approach, and most of Java's syntax, is adapted from C++. Programmers who are familiar with that language (or with C) will have a much easier time learning Java because of the common features.

However, Java has been described as "C++ minus" because of elements of C++ that were omitted. Gosling wanted to avoid the problems encountered when using C++. The most complex parts of C++ were excluded from Java, such as pointers and memory management. These elements are complicated to use, and are thus easy to use incorrectly. Finding a pointer error in a large program is an experience not unlike searching for the one-armed man who framed you for murder. Memory management occurs automatically in Java--programmers do not have to write their own garbage- collection routines to free up memory.

Another design decision to make Java simpler is its elementary data types and objects. The language enforces very strict rules regarding variables--in almost all cases, you have to use variables as the data type they were declared to be, or use explicit casts to manipulate them. This arrangement permits mistakes in variable use to be caught when the program is compiled, rather than letting them creep into a running program where they're harder to find. As a result, programs behave in a more predictable manner.

Java is an object-oriented programming language developed by Sun Microsystems that plays to the strengths of the Internet.
The feature that is best known about Java is that it can be used to create programs that execute from World Wide Web pages. These programs are called applets.
Java programs made such a big splash on the Web because they offered interactivity in a medium that was largely one way. The Web distributes almost all information in a passive manner. Someone using a browser asks for a page, looks it over, asks for another, looks it over, and so on. Lather, rinse, repeat.
A Java applet running on a Web page provides a much richer experience-both in terms of information and user interaction. Information can change in response to user input or be updated dynamically as a Web page is viewed
Although Web-based programs are a strength of the language, Java is a general-purpose language that can be used to develop all kinds of programs.

---

Wow, that was long, but I took some parts of this article fom the web.
Hope that you have an idea about what java is now.

[Lain]

Eh... just sounds like the usual crap Sun says.

So Java is 100% easier? Wasn't it made so that C++ programmers could easily adpat to the new language... so there really should be much of a difference in ease of use.

http://www.panix.com/userdirs/jdw/javasucks.html

Instead of taking the liberties of editing and reposting an article that's already on the web... i simply gave you a link.

The wonders of the internet.

Bottom line: Java is slower.

[Paul Victorey]

I know Java, C++, x86 assembler best; I've had to learn maybe 12 other languages for various applications. My thoughts on the java vs. c++:

I program almost exclusively in C++, I do windows GUI work, which isn't nearly as hard as it's made out to be. I generally use OWL (Object Windows Library) which encapsulates windows as objects, thus getting the benefits of OOP, however, I do know the WinAPI as well, and use it when I need to create code beyond just my compiler.

However, although I strongly suggest you learn C++, I also recommend that you learn Java as a first step. I greatly benefitted from my Java experience, despite the fact I never use it anymore. By forcing you to use OOP, Java, which is a strict language, will teach good programming habits. C++ is not very strict at all -- it allows the user to make decisions about the programming style he or she chooses, but if you don't know what styles are good and which are not, you can end up writing horrible code.

Java is somewhat easier to learn, in that the nitty gritty about memory management is not in your hands -- objects are deleted when the last reference to them is lost; in C++ object management is a little trickier (there are 2 kinds of objects, as opposed to one, and they behave a little different).

Of course, memory rules in C++ *are* simple (there's really only one rule), but sometimes you are required to think about what is happening.

[aym]

Originally posted by Lain Eh... just sounds like the usual crap Sun says. So Java is 100% easier? Wasn't it made so that C++ programmers could easily adpat to the new language... so there really should be much of a difference in ease of use. http://www.panix.com/userdirs/jdw/javasucks.html Instead of taking the liberties of editing and reposting an article that's already on the web... i simply gave you a link. The wonders of the internet. Bottom line: Java is slower.

Who told you that I copied and pasted the article from the web? I took some (quotes and ideas) and rewrote them into this article, don't attack before making sure that you're right.
We are here to debate, not to attack and flame.

[aym]

And I won't read your link.

[Sunday Silence]

Aw rite as much as I hate to wake a dead thread, how about Pearl vs Java as a place for a newbie to begin. Must also mention this newbie also considers self a complete idiot.