Win2k will not startup

[0idiot1]

I have a Dell Latitude CPi-D 266xt which will not startup the machine gets through post and to the " Windows 2000 loading" flash screen. When the loading graphic completes the screen goes black and returns to the bios screeen this cycle will repeat until the power is turned off, all startup options under f8, including safe mode, don't work. I've tried switching HDs' which will both run perfectly in a same make and model Latitude
Dell Latitude CPi-D 266xt
125MB
4g
bios a02 Pheonix

[GaryRouth]

Will the system boot into the Dell Diagnostics? -- If so, give them a try. Hardware trouble is certainly a possibility (the POST tests aren't really thorough) - so if you can get the diagnositics going, that will give you a good chance to see if it's hardware.

Does the laptop boot to a bootable CD? (either Windows 2000 or perhaps a Knoppix disk)

If yes, do you have a disk image backup to try? If no backup, is a clean install an option?

If the laptop doesn't boot from a CD, does the laptop boot to a floppy diskette (if you have either one built in or an external)?

If you can boot from a floppy, you can try flashing the bios - in case a virus has corrupted the current version.

Good luck with your project
. . . Gary

[P.S. ... just noticed that this is your first post here: Welcome to the PC Mechanic forums]

Here's a link to the Dell Diagnostics instructions for older laptops http://support.dell.com/support/topi...550&l=en&s=gen

[0idiot1]

I can't get the machine to boot to Dell Diagnostic nor will it boot to a CD, the only thing it will boot to is a Win98 boot disk. In my first post I switched HD's with a simular Latitude running Win2k which also won't boot, but will boot on the other machine, now on the problem machine with other HD in safe mode on the screen scrolls multiple line simular to; multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)winnt system, etc then abrubtly ends in a black screen and so on. If I flassh the bios and its infected with avirus will the new bios version be infected or worse crash the bios? Please tell me if I need to post to another subject forum. Thanks for replying Gary.

[Mesaeus]

The lines you see scrolling by simply report which files (like dlls) Windows is loading, it's meant to help determine the problem dll. It's standard behavior for safe mode. At this point I would not try flashing the bios, 10 to 1 it doesn't have anything to do with your current troubles. Can you plug in a cdrom drive from somewhere else so you can boot Windows setup ? A repair installation may be the only thing that will work for you...

[0idiot1]

Could an identical Latitude be used and if so how would the connection be made between the two computers? Please explain how to make one CDROM from one machine work on another, and what is a repair installation? I want to be sure I understand that based on the machine's problems I've outlined you don't think there is virus in the bios? Thanks Mesaeus.

[Mesaeus]

There's at this moment no virus capable of infecting the bios, so you can rest easy at that point. Anyway, it seems like your cdrom drive isn't working too good anymore, which is a problem that many many laptop drives have after a while. You can replace the cdrom drive or have Dell replace it (if it's still under warranty). Better yet, some laptops have removable trays which contain the cdrom drive. Does yours ?

A repair installation is like a normal installation except it only copies the system files and leaves your data and any installed programs intact. It would be a good way to fix this problem you have, but you need to be able to boot from the Windows 2000 cd or otherwise start a setup.

[0idiot1]

I'm still puzzled by the fact that I can take either HDs' and place them in my other Latitude and they work fine, but put them in the problem machine and I get the HD LED and Win2k loading flash screen then a black screen. Is it more probable that the problem is with the hardware? I can't get past the fact that I have two completely functioning HD, this doesn't make sense.

[Mesaeus]

Yes, that rather does suggest a hardware problem. You could try testing the memory with memtest86, they have floppy disk images that you should be able to use. Other than that I can't really think of something to try. If you can hook up an external cdrom (usb) and boot from it (if your bios allows it), you can try backing up the data on one drive and see if you can do a reinstall of windows 2000.

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

Sorry this reply is so late - I've been busy.

Since the problem Win2000 hard drive boots OK in the other Latitude, go ahead and boot to it there, and (using Regedt32) try altering this Registry setting:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\CrashControl\AutoReboot

Change the "AutoReboot" value to 0 (zero) --- it's likely currently set to 1 (one) [which causes an automatic reboot when the system encounters a fatal error]. This setting is much easier to change in Windows XP, it can be found in the "My Computer" properties options.

You should now be able to shut down, etc. and put the hard drive back in the troubled Latitude - and see if this time you see an error message (rather than just going into the reboot loop). The error message should give us a clue as to where the problem is.

Has the troubled Latitude's case been opened up recently? If so, you could (with a service manual handy) check all the connections inside, especially the video connectors.
-- Another question would be if any spills or power surges have recently occurred.

I'm a little curious how the troubled Latitude booted to a Win98 disk (was that a Win98 floppy diskette? or CD?) but couldn't boot into the Dell Diagnostics. If your version of the diagnostics was on a floppy, it should have worked. Did you have any PC-cards or external cables active while trying this? There's a note on the Dell site -->
"NOTE: Dell Diagnostics are not intended to be run on portable computers when:
1) Docked to a docking station or port replicator
2) PCMCIA devices are inserted into the PCMCIA slots
3) External cables (other than the AC adapter power cable) are attached.
Make sure to remove any of the above conditions before running Diagnostics on a Portable Computer."

If your version of the Dell Diagnostics are on the Dell Resource CD, pressing the 1 (one) key should have brought up the Diagnostics menu.

If you can get the Dell Diagnostics to run, they are your best bet for determining any hardware faults. They are very thorough & will return errors that you can look up detailed explanations for. (The link I pasted into my first reply has good instructions for the Dell Diagnostics). Have you been able to access the troubled Latitude's Bios Setup screens?

If the Bios settings in the troubled Latitude are set incorrectly, or the Bios itself has been corrupted by either a virus, power surge, or a weak CMOS battery, that could cause trouble - - - It's not all that likely, but if during your troubleshooting you are left with the motherboard as a suspect, and the system is stable enough to manage a Bios flash - it's a last-ditch effort that sometimes can work. ... The bios is actually at risk anytime an compromised executable is run, if there isn't any antivirus Bios protection active -either in the Bios itself, or in Windows.

If you haven't been able to boot from the CD-drive at any time on the problem Latitude, there's a question of whether the Cd-drive is OK, whether the boot order is set OK in the Bios, whether the Bios itself (or motherboard) is OK, or whether your bootdisks were damaged (usually the bootdisks aren't the problem - an easy check for those is simply to try them on the other machine).

Try getting into the bios, checking the settings, and see if you can get the Dell Diagnostics to run. Try the diagnostics on the good machine first, if you want some practice before going to the problem machine.

Best of luck
. . . Gary

[P.S. ... the reason I'm not certain that a repair installation of Windows 2000 would work - is that Windows 2000 works fine when booted into in the other Latitude. That suggests trouble somewhere in the motherboard configuration or the hardware of the problem notebook.]

[0idiot1]

Better late than never, thanks for the ideas and give me a day or so to go through them all , I'll post back with results. Mesaeus, I'll try a reinstall after I know its not hardware issue and thanks for the help.

[0idiot1]

Hey, I changed the value to 0 in the registry and it won't stop the boot loop. The case hasn't been opened that I'm aware of. I ran the Dell diagnostics and everything passed. I've scanned both HDs' for viruses with no viruses detected. The bios order is correct, however, the bios itself will not allow the values to be changed except for the password values. The CD drive does not show-up in the bios. I do not how to check the bios for problems with viruses. Is it possible the HD controller is corrupt? Still discombabblated.

[GaryRouth]

I'm going to guess that you successfully booted from a floppy diskette & ran the Dell Diagnostics from there. Also, it seems that at no time since your current trouble started have you been able to get anything from the Cd-drive in the troubled Latitude, right?

Well, since I believe the Cd-drive in your model snaps in and out of a "Modular Bay", you could try removing the Cd-drive, and see if anything changes. If suddenly the laptop boots successfully into Windows 2000 - it looks like you've a replacement part to round up - maybe. It could be either the drive itself or something wrong with either the motherboard or in the connection to the motherboard (a problem with the Modular Bay, for example). One way to test this would be to try the Cd-drive from the working Latitude.

--> There is a risk involved in using the good Cd-drive from the good Latitude, however, since if there's a short in the Modular Bay, the drive could then also be damaged.
--> There's no risk, though, in simply trying things without the Cd-drive present (with an empty Modular Bay).


I'm puzzled by the fact that you mention that you can only change the Bios password in the Bios Setup screens, and that other options are available. Try looking at the Dell "Reference & Troubleshooting Guide" for your model, it's available (in Adobe .pdf format for easy reading) from the Dell support site [ http://support.dell.com/support/edoc...ojav/54723.pdf ]. Especially look at the chapter after the Introduction, which covers the many options in the Setup screens (and the keyboard keys to use to navigate around in the screens). If you have access to changing the bios password, you should have access to make most any change once in Setup. -- Unless, of course, something is wrong with the Bios itself.

I'm curious to see if anything changes with the Cd-drive absent. And if you have any luck checking around in the Setup settings.

I realize it's not much fun when a repair turns out to be this frustrating - but keep at it.
. . . Gary

[0idiot1]

Hey,Gary,The floppy drive does work and I did indeed run Dell Diagnostics from the floppy drive in the same modular bay as the CD-drive yet nothing will load from the CD-drive when installed in the the above bay. As suggested I tried booting the laptop with the modular bay empty, no joy. I downloaded the Dell Latitude pdf and went through the setup screen options none of the values in the bios would change. Even when using Fn-F to reset to factory values none changed. One question, is there a virus capable of infecting the bios? One of the other posters Mesaeus wrote there is not one at this time, if not how does a bios get broken? Additionally what do you think about removing the CMOS battery?

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

Interesting. When you left the Modular Bay empty, did the laptop go into the boot-loop (restarting over and over), or did it simply not boot at all? [I'll guess that it did the same boot-restart-boot-restart loop].

Usually when you can't change settings in the Bios, it's due to a protection based on entering the Bios password. But you've already mentioned that you are able to change the Bios password = so you should be able to access and change the settings.

Removing the CMOS battery might be something to try = it will put all the Bios settings back to their defaults. It does seem logical that you'd be able to make changes to the settings then. In fact, you usually have to enter Setup anytime the values are reset in this way - you'll have to enter basic things like the time and date, and make sure that the other values match your current hardware. (Most of the settings are pretty well explained in the Dell manuals).

To get the values to reset, unplug the AC adapter, remove the laptop's main battery, take your precautions to avoid static shock, and then proceed to remove the CMOS battery (the step-by-step disassembly instructions are in the "Service" manual for your model). Leave the battery out for 15 or 20 minutes, just to be sure (you only want to have to do this once!). Then put it back in, reassemble, and go into Setup to check settings.

There aren't that many bios viruses around - the few I've seen are pretty destructive, and you know when you've got one (there's usually data loss - sometimes an entire hard drive will be erased). Most antivirus tools will scan the bios of the computer that the scan is run from. F-prot, which can run from a bootable floppy, could do that. If you could boot from a CD, any antivirus tool that can run from a CD would be able to check. Since the computer seems to boot and run fine from a floppy, it's also true that flashing the bios would certainly eliminate any virus present - and it also should let you enter Setup to access and change settings as needed.

Removing & replacing the battery is generally a low-risk repair. The biggest risk there is simply in the disassembly/reassembly involved to reach the CMOS battery on the motherboard. A bios-flash is risky - if there's any danger that it could be interrupted. An unsuccessful bios-flash can result in an unusable motherboard. Experienced techs generally don't have much trouble with such procedures, so long as they are careful.

Truthfully, the bios might not have much to do with the problem. The fault could be a hardware failure somewhere on the motherboard itself, or with another system component. Even the best behaved bios can't do much with bad hardware.

But it might be worth a try. The reason to be hopeful is that the laptop runs fine when booted from a floppy, and that the Dell Diagnostics didn't find any problem in the hardware [curious though - what did it say when it tested the CD-drive?].

Did you try putting the Cd-drive from the other Latitude into the Modular Bay & seeing if you can boot from it? Or if booting from the hard drive is suddenly OK with the good CD-drive in the Modular Bay? If you have good backups of your data, and the laptop boots OK from the other CD-drive (but goes into the restart-loop when booted from the hard drive), you could try the repair reinstall that Mesaeus mentioned earlier.

. . . Gary

[tmathews]

To stick in my two bits, have you tried the questionable
CD drive in the good laptop? If it works there you can
eliminate it as a factor. That the bad laptop doesn't boot
with the modular bay empty and does with a floppy drive
installed suggests the interface and drives are working
properly but it should be fairly easy to be sure.

As Gary pointed out (though in the other direction), there
is the risk that the questionable CD drive could damage
the good laptop's modular bay. Since the floppy drive
worked in the bad laptop I would consider the risk low.

[0idiot1]

Hey,Gary, Both CD's function currectly in the good machine and will spin-up in the bad machine, however, any boot files I put on the CD won't boot the machine. I have come to believe that either the bios or the HD controller is broken (or someother motherboard component) although I'm unclear as to the symptoms of a HD controller failure are, I've got the backup HD (the HD I want to put in the bad machine if I ever get it running,is in the good machine and I'm going to load an antivirus on it and run it. So, I'm going to take the CMOS battery out and if that doesn't fix it I'll flash the bios and if that doesn't work I'll get a new motherboard for $29.00 or shoot it and hang in plan sight as a warning to other laptops.

[GaryRouth]

It would be nice if one of your last-ditch efforts helps - you never know ["It ain't over till it's over" - Yogi Berra]

It would be a bargain to find a Latitude replacement motherboard for $29 in good working condition. It does seem likely that something isn't right in the motherboard or in the Modular Bay.

Still curious, do the Dell Diagnostics let you start them from the floppy, then hot-swap in the Cd-drive and test it? I would guess you'd see a controller/interface error of some sort.

Usually this sort of thing happens after the laptop has tried to fly without the help of an airplane [and a pin breaks, or a trace is damaged], or has gone swimming.

Those older Latitudes were pretty hardy: so your luck might still be good.
. . . Gary

[0idiot1]

Gary,I tried to hot swap the floppy for the CD and the CD spun but none of the files contained on it would run and they were supposed to. Here's where it gets weird I attempted to flash the bios after downloading a new version from Dell and it didn't flash all I got was a message " remove disks or other media, press any key to restart" endlessly looping. During the last attempt when I swapped HDs' the HD I use as a backup wouldn't run any of the Win2k startup options and yet the other HD would run safe mode. This machine must have been damaged at somepoint through a power surge because of there are too many wildly different problems to originate with one software problem, so I quess its a new motherboard. Thanks, Gary.

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

Sorry this replay is so late, I've been very busy with some projects.

... if you received the message to remove the floppy diskette after flashing the bios, did you at that point remove the floppy, and then press a key? --

If you forgot to remove the floppy before pressing a key - you could try that.
If you removed the floppy & still got the message, what happens if you try the reset button?

If you've replaced the motherboard already, and things are OK now, then you no longer have to worry about them.

If you still have that troubled system intact, it sounds like the flash was finished, but the system didn't respond to it's signal to restart.

Wild time of it!
. . . Gary

[0idiot1]

Gary, The other night just for laughs I put a Win98 boot disk in the floppy drive and accessed DOS and using fdisk was able to format and establish a partition and then activiate the partition on the HD on the bad computer. Unless I'm mistaken either the CD controller or the drivers for the CD are inoperative. Why can I format the HD but not boot the OS? Does the OS have to be created on the computer that will run the OS and do you think I should attempt another BIOS flash? Thanks.

[glc]

If you can fdisk and format the drive by booting with a 98 floppy, what happens if you choose "Start computer with CD-ROM Support"? If you can access a CD this way, there's a trick where you can install 2K by booting with a specially prepared Win98 bootdisk.

[0idiot1]

The CD will spin-up, but no data transfer happens, the BIOS says there is a CD when the module is attached. I can't find a test for the CD on the Dell diagnostic test,do you know where to find the CD test on the Dell test? Is there a test utility that runs in DOS that can test hardware and software? What is the trick to booting from the CD?

[GaryRouth]

Again, sorry for the delay in my replies lately - I've just been swamped. . .


The CD tests in the newer Dell Diagnostics run under the section for IDE devices.

I found an older manual for the CP and CPi series (the "Reference and TroubleShooting Guide") on the Dell support site http://docs.us.dell.com/support/edoc...v/en/index.htm

The interesting part is that they suggest using a floppy drive attached to the system through the parallel port - and using the diskette-based version of the Dell Diagnostics. The Cd-drive has to be in the Modular Bay, with media in it containing data (for the read tests). The Cd-drive tests are a section all their own: "IDE CD-ROM DRIVES".

Another interesting thing is that in the "System Setup" (ie: Bios setup) section of the CP/CPi refence guide (same as the one I just pasted the link to) --- there is no mention of the Cd-drive as an option for booting from. The only boot options in the bios that I can see are the floppy diskette or the hard drive. So to get to the CD rom in DOS, you have to first boot from a diskette (that has drivers that can provide access to the Cd-drive). I believe this is what glc was referring to (the Win98 bootable diskettes usually contain some generic Cd-drive drivers, so that the Cd-drive can be accessed when the system is booted from the diskette)...

This would explain why the system wouldn't boot from the Cd-drive, even when you had the known-good Cd-drive in the Modular Bay.

I believe the diskette-based Dell Diagnostics, if run from a parallel-port diskette, should be able to access the Cd-drive to test it (or at least report that the drive is malfunctioning and can't be accessed). Seems logical at this point to expect an error message will result. I suppose the question is whether it's the Cd-drive or the motherboard that is failing. That's the tricky part.

It must have done some decent service along the way, though - to last this long is pretty good for one of the first PII based laptops (the earlier CP series look to have been original-Pentium based).

If you can scrounge a parallel floppy drive to try, that might give us some interesting data.

. . . Gary

[0idiot1]

I've tried the CD-rom module in an identical model Dell Latitude CPi and the CD worked perfectly, so the problem is not the CD module and must either reside in the lack of drivers in BIOS or with the CD connectors on the motherboard. I'm still curious as to why sometimes when I can get to safemode the OS begins loading various drivers and DLL's and starts a booting loop after the screen goes black? If this were only a software issue then is there a utility run from DOS and loadable from a diskette, capable of repairing the damaged software which prevents booting? I'm convinced that the problem is either multi-component failures or the HD controller, what do think? Should I give-up on a software save and resort to the " Jethro Bodin computer brain surgeon" route and install a new motherboard?

[tmathews]

I reread the whole thread to get oriented again on where you stand and have a few more questions:

1) Were you able to do the memtest86 run that Mesaeus suggested? I see you did run the Dell diagnostics but I believe memtest86 is more stressful.

2) Did you check/replace the CMOS battery or just wait a while and put it back? Ideally, did you try swapping the CMOS batteries between the two machines?

3) You mention the BIOS revision was A02 -- is it the same on the good one? When you tried to flash the BIOS did you use something newer than A02? If so, does it now say the new version?

4) What happened just before the problem appeared? Was it functioning normally then the next time you went to power it wasn't?

5) Have you looked at the connector in the modular bay? If it's male, can you see any bent pins? If the CD-ROM has a female connector, are there any scratches or gouges in the plastic where a crooked pin may have missed the hole and gotten bent over? If so, take an extra look at the corresponding pin in the modular bay.

6) Have you opened the machine up and done a visual inspection inside?

[0idiot1]

1) Memtest86 results: 0 (zero) errors. This tests only represents the health of installed RAM right?
2) Not yet I'm trying to eleminate all software problems first.
3) The good machine's BIOS is a Phoenix BIOS Plus Version 1.10 A12, The bad machine is Phoenix BIOS Plus Version 1.10 A02 even after downloading a new version A12 (the A12 version being the Dell sites' suggested update as I understood it to mean) on to a floppy and inserting in to the floppy module of the bad machine. Powered up and waited for it to find the floppy I could hear it reading the floppy so I waited and waited , in fact I'm still waiting, and yet nothing ever happened. I don't understand how that can happen a failed flash should at least screw up the existing BIOS right? (4)Powered up started booting loop.
5) Yes, everything is fine the CD and floppy module both work fine in the good machine and only the CD doesn't work in the bad machine.
6) No, see answer 2 above. Inaddition I really wouldn't know what would be out of place or just wrong inside a laptop.
I have discovered that the CMOS batteries on Dell Latitudes' are soldered in to place on the Mobo so that removes one possible repair. I have a question, observation after formatting the bad machine's HD this should overwrite the MBR and if there were a virus or a virus corrupted MBR causing a booting loop, these should be extermanated or fixed? So booting loop caused by HD controller? How can I destroy this possiblity?

[tmathews]

1) Okay, let's assume the RAM is okay. I would try swapping it just in case because it's easy but I doubt this is the problem.

2) A soldered-down CMOS battery tells me it's rechargeable. Does the clock retain the correct time if the machine is powered off and unplugged for a while? A failed battery might explain some of your symptoms.

3) The difference in BIOS versions and failure to flash lead me to suspect something is wrong with the BIOS. Does the same setup successfully flash the BIOS on the good machine? Can you find a different version of the flash utility and/or BIOS to try? An incomplete or corrupted flash can easily leave the motherboard dead so I don't think yours made it as far as trying to write the flash chip.

4) So the boot before the boot looping started everything was normal. Unless you can remember anything unusual happening (dropped, cooked in the trunk of the car, new software installed, etc.) there's no clue here.

5) That the drives work in the good machine doesn't mean the connector in the bad one isn't damaged. Sometimes the damage can be pretty hard to see. Still, let's assume this isn't the problem.

6) I'm not sure either but often a careful visual inspection can turn up the problem. I haven't messed with the innards of laptops but at this point I would say you don't have much to lose. Perhaps there's dust or debris clogging or shorting something, bulging or leaking capacitors or CMOS battery, or something that just looks odd.

To be totally sure about the MBR you could zero-fill the disk then reformat and repartition with a known-clean version. The boot loop doesn't happen on the good machine so I doubt this is your problem.

At this point I'm pretty convinced the problem is the BIOS and/or chipset. My next step would be to try swapping the motherboards between the two machines and verifying that this swaps the problem from one chassis to the other. Assuming the problem does move I would then swap the CPUs just to be sure it's the motherboard itself. The final step would then be to repair or replace the motherboard.

I guess by now you've already considered just saving your data and getting a new machine so it's now a quest to find the source of the problem...

[0idiot1]

1) I'll try switching DIMMs from the bad to the good machine and run memtest86 on the good DIMMs in the bad machine and than switch them back and run the test again.
2) Will have to chech the BIOS clock after leaving the machine absent power source battery.
3) Is it possible that going from A02 to A12 was too fast a jump and maybe I should find a A06 BIOS?
4) I'll check out the mobo as I'm replacing it.
5) Where would I find information on the Dell Latitude CPi-d mobo I've navigated Dell's site which was useless. Particularly how to change out CPUs and recharging CMOS batteries.

[tmathews]

I looked through Dell's BIOS release notes and don't see anything about incompatibility for jumping from A02 to A12 but I haven't read everything there, either. Dell has most of the versions available so it might be worth trying A06. I gather you can either use the UPGRADE.EXE utility or the BIOS executeable itself (e.g. LCPi_A12.EXE) to do the update: if you haven't done so already I would try using the other method to see if you get better resullts.

I browsed the documentation under http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/pmojav and the "Parts Removal and Replacement Guide" looks useful. It doesn't mention the CPU as a replacement item so it might be soldered down. Once you get inside it should be obvious whether it's removeable or not. The Guide does tell you how to replace the CMOS backup battery so that should be a simple matter of swapping between machines.

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

If you decide to do some exploring/repair work inside the Latitude, here's the Guide that shows what goes where for your model http://docs.us.dell.com/support/edoc...jav/remove.htm

The entire Service Manual is at http://docs.us.dell.com/support/edoc...ojav/54724.pdf

And the complete documentation available can be found starting from this link (same link provided for you by tmathews) http://docs.us.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/pmojav/
_____________________________

Curious - does the working Latitude boot from a CD? It was a little strange the other day to see no mention of that capability in the Bios Setup guide for that model.

By the way, you can usually go to the most recent bios update without any problems, so long as it's designed for your model.

Hope you run into some luck with your system: it's always fun when a classic system shows it can get up and go for another year or two.
. . . Gary