On-and-off keyboard problems w/XP

[Kent L]

I'm running Windows XP (SP3) on a Dell Inspiron desktop purchased about 3 years ago. I've had intermittent keyboard problems from the beginning: Each morning when I start it up, the keyboard might work fine, or a single key (e.g., Escape or a random letter or number) might not function. I've tried several keyboards and the problem persists, so it doesn't appear to be the hardware. Everything looks OK in Device Manager (except for the fact that I now seem to have duplicate keyboard devices listed), and when I tried to reinstall the keyboard driver from my disk, Windows refused, saying my current driver was up to date. I've also tried several different USB ports, all of which work fine with other devices. I’m stumped!

[laurandavid]

I would try to uninstall all keyboards and reinstall the keyboard.

[Kent L]

Thanks for your reply. I've already gone into Device Manager, right-clicked on the keyboard devices and selected uninstall, letting the system reinstall automatically. (As I mentioned, it won't let me reinstall from a disk.) Is there some other method of un/reinstalling that I've overlooked?

[laurandavid]

Originally Posted by Kent L Thanks for your reply. I've already gone into Device Manager, right-clicked on the keyboard devices and selected uninstall, letting the system reinstall automatically. (As I mentioned, it won't let me reinstall from a disk.) Is there some other method of un/reinstalling that I've overlooked?

Download drivers from the company website.

[Kent L]

The (Logitech) keyboard didn't come with any drivers, nor can I find one on their website; I think it's meant to use the native Windows drivers. Back when I thought the problem might be with the keyboard itself, Logitech sent me a replacement, which didn't help. During brainstorming with the tech rep, the possibility of drivers was never even suggested.

[jdeb]

I have run into this before and on both occasions their was a bios fix for the problem. Both units were Dells. Go to this link and type in your service tag #, found on the back of the tower or possibly on the bottom. You may want to read the text file or descriptions for the bios fix's first to see if your problem is described in the update.

Dell - System Information

[Kent L]

I'm relieved just to hear from someone who's familiar with this problem! The Dell page you sent me to just provides warranty information when a service tag is entered. But I found my way to another page of specs for my computer, and the only BIOS info listed is for a date that's earlier than when I bought it. How do I find out if there's a newer version available from a source other than Dell -- and if it's likely to solve my problem? Or is there a point to reloading (or flashing, or whatever it is one does) the same BIOS that I already have?

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Kent L I'm relieved just to hear from someone who's familiar with this problem! The Dell page you sent me to just provides warranty information when a service tag is entered. But I found my way to another page of specs for my computer, and the only BIOS info listed is for a date that's earlier than when I bought it. How do I find out if there's a newer version available from a source other than Dell -- and if it's likely to solve my problem? Or is there a point to reloading (or flashing, or whatever it is one does) the same BIOS that I already have?

when you enter the service tag # you should be able to get to the page that lists all the drivers for your system, sounds as if your figured it out. If there is only one bios update, I would download it and read the readme file accompanying it to see if your problem is described in it. Do not update bios yet, see what the readme has to say. whats the make and model number of your Dell? I am not sure if you are allowed to post your service tag number, so don't unless one of the moderators says you can. Oh by the way, I have installed earlier bios versions to fix specific problems. Some people update things just to update them and they are not necessarily the right thing to do in the case of bios. You should only update bios for specific problems as described in the readme text file.

[Kent L]

jdeb: Thanks for your help on this.
It's a Dell Inspiron 530. Here's the page on the Dell site about the BIOS that comes up when I enter the service tag: Drivers and Downloads. Here's the BIOS info for my system: AwardBIOS v6.00PG.

When I downloaded the version from Dell, it didn't offer a readme file. It did, however, say that my current version was 1.0.12, whereas the "new" version I was about to install was 1.0.10, which seems to suggest that I'd be rolling back rather than upgrading.

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Kent L jdeb: Thanks for your help on this. It's a Dell Inspiron 530. Here's the page on the Dell site about the BIOS that comes up when I enter the service tag: Drivers and Downloads. Here's the BIOS info for my system: AwardBIOS v6.00PG. When I downloaded the version from Dell, it didn't offer a readme file. It did, however, say that my current version was 1.0.12, whereas the "new" version I was about to install was 1.0.10, which seems to suggest that I'd be rolling back rather than upgrading.

well that update is for cpu support that does not apply. Do you have any keyboard software loaded? You said you have two installed, what are they? look in the properties in device manager, select the driver tab. who is the driver and what is the date. We may need to uninstall one of them, not sure which one yet.

[Kent L]

Both items listed in Device Manager are described as Microsoft HID keyboard device. Both are version 5.1.2600.5512 and both are dated 7/1/2001. I tried to uninstall both, hoping that only one would be automatically reinstalled (eliminating any possible conflict), but both came back.

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Kent L Both items listed in Device Manager are described as Microsoft HID keyboard device. Both are version 5.1.2600.5512 and both are dated 7/1/2001. I tried to uninstall both, hoping that only one would be automatically reinstalled (eliminating any possible conflict), but both came back.

hmmm.... I am stumped a little bit, let me fire up my test rig and get back to you.

I'm back

Try this

http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/504/h...-and-services/

[Kent L]

Even if this technique allows me to permanently uninstall one of the drivers, I'm a little nervous about uninstalling the wrong one. In any case, is there any reason to think that having two is the source of my problems? I can't be sure, but I don't think I've always had two, which would mean the intermittent failure of various keys predates the double driver.

[Nuclear Krusader]

The reason why they keep coming back is that the driver files are still in the drivers folder, whenever Windows boots up it finds them, enumerates them and installs them automatically.

Nevertheless, that's not your problem: the failure began before you installed all those keyboards and their drivers.

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Kent L Even if this technique allows me to permanently uninstall one of the drivers, I'm a little nervous about uninstalling the wrong one. In any case, is there any reason to think that having two is the source of my problems? I can't be sure, but I don't think I've always had two, which would mean the intermittent failure of various keys predates the double driver.

the worst that is going to happen is that it will automatically reinstall again. what do you see under the keyboards line?

[Kent L]

Originally Posted by jdeb the worst that is going to happen is that it will automatically reinstall again. what do you see under the keyboards line?

If you mean what's under Keyboards on the main page of Device Manager (after I click on + to expand it), there are two identical headings that read HID Keyboard Device. If you mean what's on the General tab after I click on one of those devices, it says "Manufacturer: (standard keyboards)."

I forgot to add that the same problems occur even when I start up in safe mode. Does that mean it's less likely that the driver is at fault?

Should I be thinking BIOS here?

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Kent L If you mean what's under Keyboards on the main page of Device Manager (after I click on + to expand it), there are two identical headings that read HID Keyboard Device. If you mean what's on the General tab after I click on one of those devices, it says "Manufacturer: (standard keyboards)." I forgot to add that the same problems occur even when I start up in safe mode. Does that mean it's less likely that the driver is at fault? Should I be thinking BIOS here?

well the bios was my initial suspect because I thought maybe there was an update to address your issue. I think that there are two drivers loading in either mode and one of them is causing the other to not work correctly. That's why I suggested you to that link. The grayed out one (if there is one under the keyboards device) can be uninstalled.

If you read the response further down (response to Steve) you will see this...
show hidden devices, but not the non-present devices. And the reason you get the message "failed to uninstall the device. The device may be needed to boot up the computer" may be due to dependency on a non-present device. For me, setting the environment variable before starting the device manager enabled me to uninstall the non-present device first, and then I was also able to uninstall the hidden devices that before refused to uninstall (at least most of them ...)

[Kent L]

Originally Posted by jdeb The grayed out one (if there is one under the keyboards device) can be uninstalled.

So since neither of the devices is grayed out, which do i try to uninstall?
By the way, in Device Mgr (“driver details”), both list two driver files: “C:\WINDOWS\system32\DRIVERS\kbdclass.sys” and, below that, “…kbdhid.sys”

EDITED TO ADD: Sorry, I thought you were referring to the two visible keyboard drivers. I used your cmd trick to look for other, grayed-out drivers & found about eight. Deleted them. Now the question is what to do about the duplicate visible drivers -- assuming the problem is really driver-related in the first place (which someone else has advised me is likely not the case since the problem occurs even in safe mode). *sigh*

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Kent L So since neither of the devices is grayed out, which do i try to uninstall? By the way, in Device Mgr (“driver details”), both list two driver files: “C:\WINDOWS\system32\DRIVERS\kbdclass.sys” and, below that, “…kbdhid.sys” EDITED TO ADD: Sorry, I thought you were referring to the two visible keyboard drivers. I used your cmd trick to look for other, grayed-out drivers & found about eight. Deleted them. Now the question is what to do about the duplicate visible drivers -- assuming the problem is really driver-related in the first place (which someone else has advised me is likely not the case since the problem occurs even in safe mode). *sigh*

That could be malware...Some malware camouflage themselves as kbdhid.sys, particularly if they are located in c:\windows or c:\windows\system32 folder

I would pull the hard drive and hotplug (sata/ide adapter) an adapter it to another computer an run malwarebytes on it. Being that your problem is present in both the safe and normal, I would advise to run malwarebytes while no device drivers are initialized (stable pc or laptop).

here is the link for malwarebytes download Malwarebytes Anti-Malware - Reviews and free Malwarebytes Anti-Malware downloads at Download.com

here is the link for the adapter, you may be able to pick up locally at a computer store (something similar), I like this one because it has a separate power supply and has not failed me yet. Besides, it is a very handy little gadget.

IDE/SATA to USB 2.0 Cable Adapter - Turn Your 2.5", 3.5" or 5.25" IDE or SATA Drive Into A USB Drive! 2020

[Nuclear Krusader]

While you're at it, with the drive plugged in to a working machine, use that machine's antivirus to complement the Malwarebytes scan. A one-two strike.

[Kent L]

I run Norton Internet Security and keep it updated. I'd be very surprised if this turned out to be malware.

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Kent L I run Norton Internet Security and keep it updated. I'd be very surprised if this turned out to be malware.

thats funny, I would more surprised if you didn't have a virus or malicious software running Norton. When I work on a PC, if that is installed, I usually remove it and install Microsoft Security essentials. Most infected Pc's I work on have that installed..Now you may have gotten me in trouble with the moderators... hehe.Besides, Malware is different than anti virus software.

this may not be your problem but by us digging into it, you uncovered an additional suspect.

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Nuclear Krusader While you're at it, with the drive plugged in to a working machine, use that machine's antivirus to complement the Malwarebytes scan. A one-two strike.

well said, if norton, it won't pick it up

[Nuclear Krusader]

Norton is a virus in itself.

[Kent L]

There certainly are some strong feelings about Norton on this board! FWIW, I've found it to be reliable, as have most professional reviewers -- and, since 2009 it's very light on system resources. The suite, which I run, detects all sorts of malware, not just viruses. But I took your advice and ran Malwarebytes -- although I didn't go to the lengths you suggested, removing the hard drive -- and it found nothing.

[jdeb]

Originally Posted by Kent L There certainly are some strong feelings about Norton on this board! FWIW, I've found it to be reliable, as have most professional reviewers -- and, since 2009 it's very light on system resources. The suite, which I run, detects all sorts of malware, not just viruses. But I took your advice and ran Malwarebytes -- although I didn't go to the lengths you suggested, removing the hard drive -- and it found nothing.

well, it will not find that masked trojan if it is there considering you did not hot plug it. Again, it may not be it. I did bash them but it only comes from experience of working on many computers over the years. I know it may be a minor pain but I still think hot plugging is in order it to be sure. You can still try and uninstall one of those keyboards as described earlier.

[rwest]

One stupid thing. Is this keyboard wireless? Check the batteries.

Can you use a ps/2 keybord? If so do you have one to try?

Are you using an adapter by chance?

[Kent L]

Originally Posted by jdeb You can still try and uninstall one of those keyboards as described earlier.

If you mean uninstalling the grayed-out formerly used keyboards (after using your method to reveal hidden drivers), I did that - to no effect. If you mean uninstalling one of the two active keyboards (with identical Microsoft drivers), I've done that several times; both are automatically reinstalled and the problem continues. If you mean something else, please explain.

I do appreciate your continued efforts to figure this out with me.

[Kent L]

Originally Posted by rwest One stupid thing. Is this keyboard wireless? Check the batteries. Can you use a ps/2 keybord? If so do you have one to try? Are you using an adapter by chance?

None of my keyboards have been wireless. I started with a PS/2 keyboard, using an adapter, when I first bought the computer; that's when the problem began, so I assumed the issue was the adapter. Tried another one, then another keyboard, and finally gave up, assuming I had no choice but to use a USB keyboard . . . only to find that the problem occurred with them, too.

[rwest]

Wow, the only thing left I know, is to try a Dell Keyboard. A local shop may have one.