How do I install Win98SE on a laptop without a working CD-ROM?

[David_Jones]

Hi All,

I need help working out how, if possible, I can install Win98SE on a laptop that has been given to me with a busted CD-ROM and has Win95 loaded for which I do not have a licence. I do have a full version Win98SE CD with licence, so that would be legit.

I cannot possibly justify getting the CD-ROM fixed, and I only want to use the laptop to play around with (it is only just Win98 generation anyway being a PII 350MHz).

I am assuming that copying the Win98SE CD onto diskettes (I have a working disk drive) would be extremely tedious even if it could be done, so are there any other options?

Starting idea:

1) Use a bootable diskette to re-format the HDD, then partition using FDISK (?) so that I have, say, a DOS partition to work from for now, a partition to install Win98SE, and a third for data etc.

2) Install DOS to the first partition to give me a working PC.

3) Use the DOS PC to link with either a parallel cable or network card to another Win98SE machine and copy over the Win98SE CD from the working CD-ROM on that machine.

4) Install Win98SE from the HDD on the laptop in some way.


Will this work? If so, how do I install DOS (from the Win98SE CD ?) in the first place, given that I have to get it across using diskette.



Alternative idea:

I have an external, USB CD-Writer. Could I use that in any way to boot from, and install Win98SE directly?

The problem here is that, as I understand it, Win98 is required to access a USB device. Catch 22.


Any ideas would be most greatefully received!

Thanks,

David.

[Jomama]

3) Use the DOS PC to link with either a parallel cable or network card to another Win98SE machine and copy over the Win98SE CD from the working CD-ROM on that machine.

That one will work.
Copy the win98 directory to a separte partition.
Format the root directory( over 95). Boot with a floppy and CD to the partition with the cab files. Setup from there.

[Iman74]

I agree totally with Jamama, but one thing though. You might not need to copy the whole CD. You should only really need to copy the entire \\win98 folder with all it's cab files.

[David_Jones]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your quick reponses.

To be sure I understand:

The laptop currently has four partitions, one for Win95, and the other three are just data (empty - no data or apps on the laptop that I need to keep).

1) Copy the Win98 CD's Win98 folder to one of the data partitions (do I need to keep it inside the Win98 folder, or all the files and sub-folders in the partition root directory?)

2) Boot with a Win95 (or Win98SE?) bootable floppy.

2.5) Problem: I tried this, by creating a new system / bootable diskette from windows, and booting from it. That seemed to be okay, but I couldn't 'see' C:\, D:\ , E:\, or F:\ once I got to the A:\ prompt. I tried FDISK / STATUS, and it told me that there was a fixed disk (*phew*) but did not display any partition / drive info. How do I continue from here?

3) Re-format just the win95 partition? Do I need to use a /s switch or anything or do I just type "Format C:\" (C:\ being the drive that Win95 is currently sitting on)?

4) Go to the partition with the Win98 folder from the CD.

5) Run setup.exe

6) Sit back and watch the magic?

Thanks,

David.

[Jomama]

Resolve the problem at 2.5 first.

re: 1.
Make a folder on a data part. called 98parts and copy the contents of the win98 directory into it. and you have the rest OK.
This is less tedious than installing from a CD. It is much faster and a method I use frequenly. Also when you do it this way, later when you are adding HW or SW and win asks for the CD, this method automatically points it to the folder you created and goes from there.
Now why cant you see the partitions from the a:>
What is the make of the laptop. if it was formatted using a propriatary utility you may be stuck. Do you have restore disks?

[David_Jones]

Hi Jomama,

The laptop is a Dell, and was quite possibly formatted using a proprietary utility (not sure what that is to be honest).

I was given it by a friend who used it in his business but got a newer model and was going to ditch this one due to speed, storage, and the broken CD-ROM.

I said I was interested in playing around with it so he gave it to me along with various 'bits', but no disks.

Does that mean I am stuck?

It seems odd that FDISK recognises the fixed disk but not the partitions.

If it helps, FDISK / STATUS returns the following (not in this format, but I have lined it up so you can read it):

Fixed Disk Drive Status

Disk = 1
Drv = {Blank - Nothing shown under this heading}
Mbytes = 6189
Free = 8
Usage = 100%


Whereas if I boot up from the HDD, and seect to go to a command prompt only (pressing F8 before Windows loads), I get a C:\ prompt and FDISK / STATUS returns:

Fixed Disk Drive Status

Disk = 1
Drv = {Blank - Nothing shown under this heading}
Mbytes = 6189
Free = 8
Usage = 100%

C: 2047 Mb
D: 2040 Mb
E: 1585 Mb
F: 502 Mb

Am I correct in assuming that I cannot just CD to E:\ (where the Win98 folder is now sitting), re-format C:\ and install Win98 SE to the C:\ partition?

Thanks,

David.

[Jomama]

Am I correct in assuming that I cannot just CD to E:\ (where the Win98 folder is now sitting), re-format C:\ and install Win98 SE to the C:\ partition?

Well, that is the plan. If you can get to E:.
At a: format the c: with /s. Then reboot. (cold)
Then from E:, do it.
Good Luck. You have nothing to lose and knowledge to gain.
The nice thing about buiding your own computer is that your are intimately familar with its creation.
Not exactly a build, but close enough

[David_Jones]

Hi Again,

Sorry to be a pain!

If I understand correctly, this would mean that I booted from the HDD (not a floppy), and hence (presumably) I am running under Win95 in some way shape or form?

I am therefore thinking that if I execute a "format c:\ /s" command, albeit from the E:\ prompt, then the PC will throw a wobbly due to trying to re-format the OS that is issuing the format command (if that makes any sense).

Apologies if I am missing the point here!

Thanks,

David.

[RoyKelly]

You probally will have problems formating C: from E:

This is because when you boot to the command prompt, you are using the Windows 95 version of Command.com, and the fomat.exe in the Win98 folder on E: need the Windows 98 version.

Your best bet is to make a Winodws 98 Boot Disk and boot to it. Use it to fomat your drive. If you don't have Windows 98 to make a boot disk, you can go to www.bootdisk.com and download the files to make a boot disk.


One other thing, when you use FDISK, does it show any non dos partitons? I know that some of the Gateway computers that use their version of GoBack hsoe a non dos partion. This is because of the GoBack. I don't know if Dell used something like this, but it was just a thought.

Hope this helps.

[David_Jones]

Hi Roy,

I tried booting from a Win98 boot disk, and I got the same result as outlined above from the Win95 bootable floppy - namely that I could not 'see' any drives / partitions on the HDD, only the A:\ drive.

When I run FDISK / STATUS from the A:\ prompt (using either the Win95 or Win98 boot disk), I get the following output quoted in full, but re-formatted so you can read:

Fixed Disk Drive Status

Disk = 1
Drv = {Blank - Nothing shown under this heading}
Mbytes = 6189
Free = 8
Usage = 100%

Can anyone suggest another approach at this point that either enables one of the above, or takes a different tack?

Thanks for sticking with me!

David.

[Jomama]

So you can boot to the a:. At that point if you type c: or d: or e: what response do you get.

[RobH]

I would think (and this might be a hillbillies way of doing it)to buy a hard drive adapter (can be found for under 10 bucks) and partition and load windows using your desktop,make sure you add a folder containg the CABS and your drivers,then reinstall in your laptop and work from there.
I have a backpack (cdrom that works from the printer port) that works well with me --but if I wanted to load without a great deal of cost or time,I would try this method.

[highrisemech]

I agree with RobH hardrive adapter is the way to go. It will make life a lot easier especially if your laptop has no cdrom.

[Iman74]

Originally posted by RobH I would think (and this might be a hillbillies way of doing it)to buy a hard drive adapter (can be found for under 10 bucks) and partition and load windows using your desktop,make sure you add a folder containg the CABS and your drivers,then reinstall in your laptop and work from there. I have a backpack (cdrom that works from the printer port) that works well with me --but if I wanted to load without a great deal of cost or time,I would try this method.

RobH's idea will work only if you remember one thing. I know this becomes a friend's friend just did this, couldn't get it to work for the reason I'm about to tell you.

He took the laptop HDD, used the adaptor, connected it to a desktop, partitioned, formatted, and loaded Win98 on it from there. But when it was on the laptop it didn't work. Why? Because the heads, sectors, etc... settings were different on the desktop versus what they are on the laptop. So, if you do it this way you have to do the following: after connecting the HDD to the desktop, go into the BIOS and configure the heads, sectors, etc...to exactly what the laptop sees them as. If they already match exactly then leave it, but chances are they won't. Once that is done, proceed accordingly. But if you want my opinion, I would just partition the HDD, format it, and then copy over the Win98 directory and load it all on the Laptop. But either way will work.

[Iman74]

Too bad you don't live in my home town, I have a backpack cd-rom you could use. Used it all the time for that purpose.

[GaryRouth]

I've been following this thread for a while, since it's a question that's come up a few times and seen several different ways of solving it. The good news is that most folks get it done one way or another eventually.

My feeling is that you'd enjoy the laptop more with at least some cd-rom functionality. If the laptops cd drive is fairly generic, $40 USD can get you a Teac notebook cdrom drive... (whether it would fit in your laptop, or have the generic connectors is another question). You can find replacement cd drives on one of the lists at PriceWatch.com. Seems like you'd have a decent chance of it fitting, since it's probably a standard IDE connector, and notebook manufactures would need to keep costs down with standard parts.

If that $40 is too much, I like the idea of borrowing the "back-pack" type of cd drive from a friend just for the install (the "back-packs" plug into the notebooks parallel port.

One nice thing about going to Win98, you can reformat with just one Fat32 partition. What a bunch of trouble to have 4 partitions on a little drive like that, just so that Win95 & FAT16s 2gb limit would be OK. . .

Best of luck,
. . . Gary

[David_Jones]

Hi All,

Responses to the above assistance, queries, and suggestions:



Jomama (Error message):

I can boot from a Win95 or Win98 system floppy, and I get the A:\ prompt fine. However, if I then type "C:" to switch to the HDD, I get the error message "Invalid drive specification". I get that message for C:\, D:\, E:\, and F:\.



RobH / highrisemech / Iman74 (Hard drive adapter):

I had not heard of this. Taking out the HDD is easy (it literally just pulls out like a battery or the swappable floppy / CD-ROM).

Would such an adapter then connect directly to the HDD outside of the laptop, and if so how does it connect to the desktop?

I have no idea, but I might be able to find someone to lend me this equipment if I cannot resolve the issue that Jomama is discussing above.



Imam74 (Backpack CD-ROM):

This is also a new one on me. Would it allow me to boot up using the system disk(s) and then access the CD-ROM on the parallel port to install the new OS?

If so, how does it get around the problem outlined above regarding the inability to 'see' any of the HDD partitions from the A:\ prompt?



GaryRouth (Replace CD-ROM):

I have to admit that I am very reluctant to spend any cash on this since it was given to me to play with, and I don't really *need* it. My main aim was really to allow me to play around with Win98 in a way that I wouldn't normally feel comfortable doing, and if I trashed something then I wouldn't really be concerned.

The upshot of that is that I'd rather explore a pure software type solution for now, but thank you for the idea - I have filed it away in the dark recesses of my mind for later!



Thank you all so much for your help and suggestions. I feel confident that I'll get there with this kind of support!

David.

[RobH]

The Hard drive adapter goes on the pin out end of the HDD and then you can connect the end to a 40 wire IDE cable-it would be a simple solution.

[David_Jones]

Hi RobH,

This is all new stuff to me.

Does that mean that I would have to wire up something inside the desktop too?

Or perhaps the "40 wire IDE cable" connects directly to the parallel or one of the serial ports on the desktop?

Thanks,

David.

[RobH]

Hi David =),
The connection for the Laptop Harddrive is different than a standard desktop hard drive. The adapter just allows you to use the laptop hdd like a full fize hdd,so you can connect it to the IDE cable of your desktop.
The easiest way out of your delimma,first would be to buy a "backpack", it is a cdrom that connects to your laptop by the parallell port.
The second way would be to connect your hard drive to your desktop via the adapter,load the OS,place all the cab files and drivers for the laptop,and then use a trick posted on this forum called deleting the enum key.
any way you go it is either gonna cost you a little money or a little time-it will just depend on which you wanna part with--hope this helps

[David_Jones]

Spending the time is DEFINATELY the preference!

Hear what you are saying on the adapter. I will ask around to see if anyone I know has one I could borrow - not optimistic on this, but you never know.


Backpack Idea:

If I understand this correctly, it would simply 'emulate' a CD-ROM that should be in the machine already.

However, I cannot quite see how that will help me. I already have the files on the PC from the Win98 CD, but when I boot from a floppy (and presumably from a CD), I cannot 'see' the HDD.

Am I missing something here?

Perhaps if we can solve the problem of why I cannot see the HDD from a bootable floppy, we would be able to move forward?

To recap (for your convenience):

I can boot from a Win95 or Win98 system floppy, and I get the A:\ prompt fine. However, if I then type "C:" to switch to the HDD, I get the error message "Invalid drive specification". I get that message for C:\, D:\, E:\, and F:\.

I am figuring that if I can solve that issue, then I just run the Win98SE install from there, and we are away?


Thanks,

David.

[RoyKelly]

Hi Roy, I tried booting from a Win98 boot disk, and I got the same result as outlined above from the Win95 bootable floppy - namely that I could not 'see' any drives / partitions on the HDD, only the A:\ drive. When I run FDISK / STATUS from the A:\ prompt (using either the Win95 or Win98 boot disk), I get the following output quoted in full, but re-formatted so you can read: Fixed Disk Drive Status Disk = 1 Drv = {Blank - Nothing shown under this heading} Mbytes = 6189 Free = 8 Usage = 100% Can anyone suggest another approach at this point that either enables one of the above, or takes a different tack? Thanks for sticking with me! David.

Hi David

This is assuming that you can get the laplink working in DOS after fomatting.

Also that you have the full version of Win98 and not the upgrade.
[list][*]Boot from the Win989 floppy[*]Type FDISK[*]Choose Create Partition - use the entire drive[*]Exit FDISK[*]Reboot[*]Format/s

[David_Jones]

Hi Roy,

Thanks for pitching in - welcome to my dilemma!

Sounds like it would be fine up to the point after formatting (with /s option), but if I understand correctly, I would then have a totally blank, single partition, that is ready formatted.

How would I then install Win98SE given that I do not have a working CD-ROM?

I assume that the initial FDISK would have destroyed the existing partition structure (C, D, E, and F - see above for details), including the E:\ partition that has the Win98 folder from the Win98SE CD on it.

Is that correct? If so, how do I go from there?

Thanks,

David.

[GaryRouth]

Actually David, the part that surprises you also surprises me. . .

If your floppy boot disk is a Win98 2nd Ed. boot floppy, then it "should" be able to see those FAT16 partitions. Makes me wonder if they're compressed, or drive-overlay, or ???

Did you make that system disk yourself or download it? Just for the heck of it, if you haven't already - make one from the Win98SE cd (on another computer, of course). You can go to
Control Panel - Add/Remove Progams - StartUp Disk - Create Disk. then try fdisk again (just for the status, not formatting yet).

When you let the laptop boot from the harddrive, do you see any messages like "initializing Ez-bios" flash by quickly during the boot?

And when you boot to Win95 and look at your free disk space, how much does it report for each partition?

And - when in your last post you mention "the E partition, that has the Win98 folder...on it" - - I'm thinking that you are speaking of the future - where it Will Be, if you can copy it there (via notebook ide adaptor to desktop ide connector, or backpack cdroom, or a million floppies) ?

You certainly have an interesting puzzle here.
. . . Gary

[one more curiosity - what happens when you run a thorough ScanDisk on the drive?]

[David_Jones]

Hi Gary,

Okay - a few things in there for me to answer.


1) As far as I know, the drive is not compressed - is there some way to tell from Win95?

2) Never heard of "drive-overlay" - is there something that will tell me?

3) The Win95 boot diskette I made myself from that machine, so I cannot see why it would not then be able to 'see' the HDD partitions (FAT 16 as you point out).

3) The Win98SE boot diskette was downloaded from the net due to me not having Win98SE installed on a machine to make one. Is that likely to be a problem though?

4) Not sure how to make my own Win98SE boot disk from the CD using another PC? I have a machine with Win ME installed. Could I use that somehow with the Win98SE CD to make the boot disk you mention?

5) I've never seen anything like "initializing Ez-bios" come up on boot up, but it could be easily missed if it was fast. Slight aside, but is there a way to slow down the bootup process to see all those messages to check?

6) Win95 reports the following for each partition:

C: Used = 975 Mb, Free = 1.04 Gb, Total = 1.99 Gb (Contains Win95 and some apps - not needed)
D: Used = 1.90 Mb, Free = 86 Mb, Total = 1.99 Gb (Contains old MP3s etc - don't need them)
E: Used = 190 Mb, Free = 1.36 Gb, Total = 1.54 Gb (Contains Win98 folder from Win98SE CD only)
F: Used = 56 Kb, Free = 501 Mb, Total = 501 Mb (Totally empty)

7) The E:\ partition currently exists. The laptop currently has Win95 on the C:\ partition, and three other data partitions being D, E, and F. I have copied the Win98 folder from the Win98SE CD to the E:\ partition (using a Direct Cable Connection) in anticipation of being able to use it to install from.

8) Scandisk runs through fine with no errors reported, including a full disk surface test.


Any ideas on (1), (2), (4), or (5)?

Thanks,

David.

[Iman74]

Imam74 (Backpack CD-ROM):

This is also a new one on me. Would it allow me to boot up using the system disk(s) and then access the CD-ROM on the parallel port to install the new OS?

If so, how does it get around the problem outlined above regarding the inability to 'see' any of the HDD partitions from the A:\ prompt?

By deleting all partitions, recreate the partitions and format them.

[Iman74]

There can be several reasons why you don't see it. One in paticular comes to mind. (Correct me if I am wrong) but let's say the current partion is FAT32 and has either Win 95 or 98 on it. Now if you boot up to a floppy that was made from a FAT16 machine I don't think you will be able to recognize the FAT32 partition.
Right?

Originally posted by David_Jones Spending the time is DEFINATELY the preference! Hear what you are saying on the adapter. I will ask around to see if anyone I know has one I could borrow - not optimistic on this, but you never know. Backpack Idea: If I understand this correctly, it would simply 'emulate' a CD-ROM that should be in the machine already. However, I cannot quite see how that will help me. I already have the files on the PC from the Win98 CD, but when I boot from a floppy (and presumably from a CD), I cannot 'see' the HDD. Am I missing something here? Perhaps if we can solve the problem of why I cannot see the HDD from a bootable floppy, we would be able to move forward? To recap (for your convenience): I can boot from a Win95 or Win98 system floppy, and I get the A:\ prompt fine. However, if I then type "C:" to switch to the HDD, I get the error message "Invalid drive specification". I get that message for C:\, D:\, E:\, and F:\. I am figuring that if I can solve that issue, then I just run the Win98SE install from there, and we are away? Thanks, David.

[Iman74]

Okay, if I were you, and I made all these posts and still no success but I was able to successfully copy Win98 to a partition then I would do this.

Take a working Win98 Boot Disk and delete "all" the partitions.
Reboot.
Using a bootdisk create "one" partition "enable" large drive support.
Reboot
Confirm partition is there.
Format the partition
Reboot
Confirm the partition is now recognized as C:
Now type from the a:\ prompt sys c:
Reboot
Now using the Laplink software copy over the Win98 directory.
When done
Run setup.

Problem solved. I hope. Good luck.

[GaryRouth]

Good morning all

Let's see, let's answer questions first:

1) if a partition was compressed, it would say so in the Properties tab for that partition in My Computer or Windows Explorer.

2) a drive-overlay is a program like Ez-Bios or OnTrack Disk Manager, which allows large drives to be used with older systems whose motherboards' bios' don't have the ability to correctly detect and use the larger drives. They act as a "go-between, overlay, or translation" type of software, so that the old motherboard's bios sees what it expects.

(you can tell if it's running by using the disk diagnostics from the hard drive's manufacturer, or by the banner message during boot)

3) as Iman74 mentions, it's not a surprise that a Win95 boot disk can't see the partitions. Win98 can see and read Win95, but Win95 cannot see and read Win98.

4) As long as that's a good Win98SE boot disk, it "should" have been able to see and read the Win95 partitions. This is the part that's strange. (that's why I asked you to run ScanDisk, just in case something might be unusual there - but you just ran a good check of ScanDisk, so that answers that question)

You'd need another Win98SE computer to make a Win98SE bootdisk yourself. You could try downloading a different one: bootdisk.com has several, each provided by a different source. Since you'll be installing Win98SE, you'd want to use that version of bootdisk.
_______________

Seems to me that if you've already copied the Win98 folder to the E: partition, you can start setup by booting from the hard drive to Win95, and from the Start/Run box, browse to the Setup.exe in the Win98 folder, and run setup.
_______________
I'm hoping someone will eventually know why the Win98 boot disk didn't "see" the partitions - that's the part that puzzles me the most.

Best of luck
. . . Gary

[RoyKelly]

Originally posted by David_Jones Hi Roy, Thanks for pitching in - welcome to my dilemma! Sounds like it would be fine up to the point after formatting (with /s option), but if I understand correctly, I would then have a totally blank, single partition, that is ready formatted. How would I then install Win98SE given that I do not have a working CD-ROM? I assume that the initial FDISK would have destroyed the existing partition structure (C, D, E, and F - see above for details), including the E:\ partition that has the Win98 folder from the Win98SE CD on it. Is that correct? If so, how do I go from there? Thanks, David.

Hi David,
I thought I had also said to use the Laplink program to instal the Win98SE (assuming that it is the full version and not the upgrade), but I see that it is not there.

If you have the full version, this is probally the only way that you can do this, as it wants a blank formated drive to install on.

If you have the upgrade, you have to run it from within Win 95.