win95 to win98 full. how?

[Skinny]

I'm trying to upgrade my mates old computer. He's currently got 95 but wants 98. I have a couple of original win98 full cd's lying around, but when I stick it in the machine, I cannot get past the first install step, because it keeps telling me I cannot upgrade with this CD, I need the win98 upgrade CD instead.

Is there any way I can get past this? I was thinking of formatting the drive and running win98 full from boot up. Is this a wise step? I dont see any point in getting win98 upgrade when I have the full version on CD.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks...

[GaryRouth]

Hi Skinny

& Welcome to Pc Mechanic.

Some things to consider for your project: is his pc a store-bought or home-built pc? Pcs made by major brands can have special partitions on their hard drives, and proprietary bios features for their motherboards that make upgrading them by reformatting the drive a rather major chore.

. . . and those full Windows 98 CDs can legally only run on one computer at a time, unless you've a multi-user licence.

If you decide on the reformat, you might not be able to use any downloads from the original vendor if they depend on proprietary information on the harddrive.

That said, if you are set on it: try to identify all the hardware in the pc, and see if you can find Win98 drivers. Some drivers might be provided with the Win98 cd you have (you can check by looking around there with Windows Explorer) - for some you can try driversguide.com . . . If the harddrive is larger than 2gb, you'll want to use FAT32 as your new file system ('Y" to "Large Drive Support?" in either fdisk or Win98 setup) . . .

Another thing to consider: if your friends software is available only on a Recovery CD, I'm not sure if it will "recover" to the newly reformatted drive with FAT32 and Win98. Otherwise, it should install fine (provided he can still find the installation product keys, where needed)

Good luck whatever you decide. Post again if you have more questions (though I'll probably be checking back here tomorrow morning . . . it's getting late here in Los Angeles)
. . . Gary

[Skinny]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, the whole reformatting thing is going to be one major headache.

My best bet is to try and upgrade from 95 to 98 without formatting the drive. Im not convinced I'll get all the drivers as its a fairly old machine. If it goes wrong, he'll most probably kill me.

To answer your question, its a store built PC. They used to be used in schools and he bought it off a school when they changed their systems.

To be precise, the machine is a Viglen Contender ATX P5/200 MMX, and i've just added an extra 64mb memory for him. Its working fine, but he wants win98.

OK, so my next question is... Is it possible to upgrade 95 using the 98 full install CD (license included), without having to reformat.

If not, I'll have to get the win98 upgrade, because remformatting would be the very last option..

BTW, it's a lovely cold morning here in the UK

[Rick Hall]

It is not really a good idea to upgrade Win95 with Win98. You will eventually have problems with the operating system due to remnants of the old operating system.

The best way is to reformat and then install Win98 from scratch.

[reboot]

BUT...if you must update/upgrade, just rename win.com to win.bak and install Win98.

[Skinny]

Great support on these forums guys!
I think its best to do a complete format, install win98 fresh..

I'll let u know how I get on. I'm sure there will be problems on the way. How much minumum memory do you need to run 98, out of curiousity??

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

I poked around the net tonight a little to see what I could find about Virgen Contender systems. Unfortunately, their site isn't working for me (http://www.virgen.co.uk) - I'm wondering if it has to do with the sale of the company a few weeks ago (in September) to Sir Alan Sugar of Learning Technologies, plc?

I did see a few system specs for machines just before and just after your friends model. Truthfully, Win95 is the best match for that generation of hardware. The video could well be from an onboard Cirrus Logic chip with only 2mb of memory (probably their 5446 chip). Might not be any Win98 drivers for it, but the Win95 drivers might do okay in Win98 - maybe.

If your friend's hard drive is less than 2gb, I'd double the suggeston to stay with Win95 (among other things, it can be whittled down to a fairly small size).

That said, if you can get all the drivers together (or if you just get lucky and there are drivers on the Win98 CD), given enough memory Win98 will run fine on a P5 200mmx. ---> In fact, I'm just this week repairing an old IBM Aptiva (also 200mmx - but an Amd K6 chip) whose 4gb Maxtor died. With a few bios updates, a 30gb Maxtor is now in there: FAT32 and Win98 2nd Ed. - and it's doing fine. And the video on that Aptiva is only a 2mb ATi Rage+ onboard chip. Since you added 64mb of memory, that should be plenty for Win98 (was there originally 32mb or 64mb on the system, and the total is now 96mb or 128mb? = no problem.)

If/when you install Win98, fdisk first and delete all partitions - then create one Primary DOS partition, and start Setup from the Win98 CD - it will offer to format the drive with FAT32 ("large disk support? = Y") during the Win98 installation process.

I'm guessing the cd drive in the Contender is an IDE drive. Remember to enter Bios Setup and have the pc boot to the CD drive (look for the "boot order" menu, might take some looking around to find it). If the CD drive plugs into a non-IDE connector (on a sound card, for example), you might need to add the DOS drivers to a Win98 boot disk to get setup started.

Best of luck
. . . Gary

[Skinny]

Gary,

Thanks for checking this out. Firstly though, its viglen not virgen. Their site can be found at http://www.viglen.co.uk/ although I did get a bit about their contender range at http://www.viglen.co.uk/default.asp?...ype=SchoolHome but this only applies for their more recent systems.

You are right about the video card. It is a Cirrus 5446 although its not onboard. It is a PCI card with 8mb I think...

I also think there isn't enough room for win98. I looked at his hard drive (fujitsu) and he's only got 1.44GB left on it. I'm not sure how much room he's taken up, although I can only imagine his HD is no bigger than 2GB.

I fitted the extra memory this morning, as it was originally 16MB! I've just fitted 64MB so he's now got an acceptable 80MB RAM and you can see the difference enormously.

OK, so that his machine. What I gotta do is decide whether its worth the switch. One of the main reasons I would like to do a format is because of all the rubbish he's installed on it. Its full of crap, some of it, extremely hard to get rid off.

I could format and stick win 95... Decisions, decisions....

[Skinny]

Update. I formatted the disk and decided to stick win98 in. Hmm, I'm getting about 20% thru then getting general protection fault errors...

I might try it without the xtra ram. Ive heard that can cause problems sometimes. Then stick it back in after its been installed.

The video is 2MB and the HDD 2GB. Fingers crossed!!

[Skinny]

Right, I took the new memory out, tried again, and win98 installed ok. I eventually got to the desktop and everything looked good. So i turned off the computer stuck in the xtra ram and botted up again.

It starts to load and then says 'windows protection error. please retstart your computer'. I restart then it does the same thing again.

Anyone know what the problem is??

[Skinny]

Hmm, its fine when i take the new memory out. With 16MB Win98 boots up no problem. I really do need to use the extra 64MB though. Any ideas? Will I need to flash the bios or something?

[pquinn34]

One would have to assume you are dealing with EDO RAM in a set that old. There are a few different types (parity,non-parity,fastpage) and not only do you have to use them in pairs the types have to match. Try putting in just the "new" RAM you have and see if it works that way. If not then you will have to find a match to the original. I've seen sets that just did not accept RAM that was known to be good in a particular machine and no reason given. Good luck.

[Skinny]

yeah, you are absolutely right. the problem is was having was with the two different types of EDO RAM.

The original 16MB(2x8MB) I have now taken out and the new 64MB (2x32MB) are in its place, and I'm glad to say everything is working fine!

There was a definate conflict having the two different types, but only losing 16MB is no great loss.

I must say, his machine is now running pretty good now. In fact, I think it boots up faster than my machine running XP!

Still, the installation of 98 was very smooth indeed and there are absolutely no problems with hardware etc..

Thank you all for your help, its been much appreciated Right, I'm off to find a decent printer for him. Any suggestions??

[Skinny]

Ohh, I'm back again I'm still having slight problems. Now and again, I keep getting the dreaded blue screen with exception errors and such... Its really annoying me.

Last night I left it on and it was fine. Then this morning I was playing around with it, and decided to use microsoft updates. I downloaded an 8mb critical update, instaled it, and am having these problems more than ever.

In fact, it did say there was a problem updating the registry, so i had to restart the computer at least 3 times..

It was OK before I left for work this morning, but there is a definate problem somewhere. Is it possible the registry is playing up, i have a good feeling this is where the problem lies...

Can i get a good registry editor or healer?? One that will clean up the registry or something...

[reboot]

It's' got nothing to do with a faulty registry.
The new RAM you have is faulty.

[Skinny]

Really... Well, thats simple enough. Better send it back then! Thanks..

[reboot]

Just FYI, any time Windows keeps restarting because of registry errors, sometimes infinitely, it's actually got nothing to do with the registry, it's RAM. As Windows loads itself into RAM, it assigns certain things to certain RAM addresses, if the RAM is bad, that particular byte of information goes missing, and Windows defaults to a "registry error", not knowing it's a hardware issue.
The only other time this loop happens is on an unsucessful overclock, where the PCI bus timing is not suitable for a device.

[Skinny]

thanks for the info reboot. you learn something new everyday. well, at least i know what the problem is now. thanks again

[GaryRouth]

Hi Skinny, hi reboot, hi all

I've been busy with the kids, missed all the fun with the RAM. Don't feel bad, skinny, I was trying leftover memory on the k6-266 I fixed - it was particular about it too. Some of the older boards would take either EDO or the old Fast Page type, some only EDO, and some only Fast Page: you needed a manual for the motherboard to tell. [but none of the boards let you mix EDO and Fast Page types at the same time]. I fix most of the machines for free, mostly for friends, so my choice is usually free parts first! (I make my living on mainframes).

The online vendor Crucial has memory tested and certified (that is Guaranteed - "lifetime warranty") for that Viglen Contender ATX P5/200. It's EDO memory in 72pin Simms (has to be installed in pairs), part number CT210673. But since those modules are somewhat rare, the price is a little high: $34.19 USD for each 32mb module ($68.38 for the pair). This is what it would cost here, not sure if they have a local distributor in the UK. You certainly wouldn't want to spend much on shipping: it hurts already knowing the high cost of the old EDO modules.

Hope I don't have too many typos tonight. I must have been pretty tired last time . . . hmm, then again, I'm pretty tired here again tonight!

Best of luck
. . . Gary

[Skinny]

Gary, funny you should mention about Crucial. Because that exactly where I got my memory from!! There is a UK site. The 2 x 32MB modules cost me just ober £50 which is rather expensive.

The reason I bought them was because I did notice it had the Viglen system mentioned. Still dont work though. I phoned Crucial and they said it was highly unlikely the memory was faulty. I told them it was because the system just dont like them.

They sent me an email straight after suggesting a couple of things I should do.

Here is what they said

If you come across this issue and you are using Windows 95, 98 or ME, the problem could be related to one of several things. The first thing to do is boot the computer in Safe Mode (press the F8 key repeatedly after the memory count). If booting in Safe Mode works you should try editing your Vcache settings and your Virtual Memory. The Vcache will need to be changed, to limit the amount of memory that Windows caches. The MinFileCache should be set to 51200 and the MaxFileCache to 56320. This is done by editing the system.ini file. Here is how to do this, from the Windows Desktop: Click on Start ? Run ? type notepad c:\windows\system.ini ? click OK Locate a line in this file that reads [vcache] Insert 2 new lines after this reading the following: MinFileCache=51200 MaxFileCache=56320 Save the changes and reboot the system. If this does not work, you will require to change the Virtual Memory settings within Windows to equal the amount of installed memory. Virtual memory is an area of the hard drive reserved by Windows to act as memory. In most cases it is best to let Windows determine the Virtual Memory settings automatically. However, in the cases of instabilities the Virtual Memory settings should be changed. Here is how to do this, from the Windows Desktop: Click on Start Settings ? Control Panel Then click on System ? Performance ? Virtual Memory ? Change The Initial size (MB) & Maximum size (MB) should be set to the amount of installed memory Then click on Set ? OK ? OK Then restart your computer You may also require to upgrade to the latest version of your BIOS, this can be downloaded from your manufacturer's web site. Another thing to try is upgrading to the latest Windows Service Pack, if this does not work you are advised to contact Microsoft at <http://support.microsoft.com> as it may be a Windows issue.

I've tried all this and still it dont work. I think I'll either get a refund or a replacement. What u think i should do?

BTW, Win98 is installed and there are no problems with it. Just gotta sort out this memory problem as running it with only 16MB is not good...

[reboot]

If you've followed their recommendations to the letter, and it's still not working, let them know, and get replacement RAM.
Even try and borrow a couple of sticks from a friend, just to rule out any other problems as they suggest.
BTW, even if vcache were set to their suggested numbers, (51k-56k?) you'd need to have more than 340 meg installed for it to have much effect (340 meg is the Windows 9x/ME "crash" point).

[David_Jones]

Hi,

Would that 'rename win.com' trick work for me in upgrading from Win95 to Win98SE full on a laptop?

I have been getting lots of good advice and ideas in this thread:

http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.p...0&pagenumber=2

Perhaps Reboot's idea above is the easiest way to do it?

If so, do I have to re-boot and select 'Command Prompt Only' or do I need 'Safe Mode Command Prompt Only'?

Thanks in advance,

David.

[GaryRouth]

Hi again

skinny - I agree with reboot that the Vcache settings idea don't figure in much in your situation [that's probably a form letter, with generic troubleshooting, that they sent you]. You just don't have enough memory to worry about Vcache. And you should be able to let Windows manage virtual memory on that Viglen Contender, for the same reason - you aren't any where near any danger zones for large amounts of memory. Normal settings should be fine.

One place you can check, though, is in the Bios Setup for your Contender. During your next powerup or reboot, enter your Bios Setup and look for the screen that allows you to set memory type. When we replaced the battery, perhaps it defaulted back to Fast Page or whatnot (or just too fast a speed). I don't know what your Bios screens look like, since they can be customized by the manufacturer - but hunt around for memory type, speed, timings, etc. (Should all be on one screen). If there is an option to use "SPD", then use it --> SPD=Serial Presence Detect. This will let the bios look to find the optimum settings that are embedded in the memory module itself. If you find something you're not sure about, post a question here & we'll try to answer. I'll be checking back in here in the morning.

If it turns out the Bios settings are all a good match, and the RAM still doesn't go - even Crucial must have a stick go bad once and awhile (could get damaged during shipping, too). . . They have a good reputation, so I imagine you won't have any problems getting a refund or replacement.

DavidJones - I'm not sure about the rename trick, so I'll leave that one for someone who's tried it. (doesn't the $40 thin notebook replacement cd-drive sound good by now, though?) - I love having a cd-drive available: couldn't live without 'em, even on a take-it-apart-for-fun machine. Makes life so much easier, and the machine can share info much more easily.

Now I got to fold some laundry and go to bed.
. . . Gary

[David_Jones]

Hi Gary,

I probably should have mentioned to you before that I have an external (USB) CD writer.

Therefore, it is only under the current Win95, and under DOS that I cannot use it. That is another good reason, quite apart from the licenses, to upgrade to Win98SE - so that I can use the writer!

Any takers on whether to perform that win.com rename / install of Win98SE from a standard 'Command Prompt Only' or 'Safe Mode - Command Prompt Only' re-boot?

Thanks guys,

David.

[GaryRouth]

skinny - hope your Crucial memory & system are OK

David Jones - Iman says Go Dave Go (on your other thread). I like the laplink idea myself - on a single partiton. . .

. . . Gary

[Skinny]

Negative. Couldn't get the memory to work, although its not all bad news. The transition to win98 went well, and its running pretty good even with only 16mb.

I've given up with the memory. I've tried numerous times to get it to work, and i just cant. I'm going to ask for refund on Monday.

My mate is happy to have a working win98 and a printer, so I'll call it a day. Thanks again

[David_Jones]

Okay - I did it!

For posterity, I used 'Command Prompt Only' - not the safe mode option.

Thanks for the help,

David.

[reboot]

Cool. You can actually rename win.com to win.bak in ANY mode, and reinstall the updated windows without even restarting the computer.