Challenging problem with file sharing

[Ryckman]

I'll try to give a good amount of detail on this problem.

I have 3 x W98 PCs. They are all on a LAN. There is a DSL router and a switch involved but I don't think they are relevant. Let me know if you think otherwise. I'll call the 3 machines A, B & C. TCPIP is only protocol installed on all three. MS file & print sharing is enabled on all 3. All 3 are running ZoneAlarm firewall. All 3 can access the internet fine. All 3 can see each others file shares fine in Windows Explorer.

PC A can copy files from PC B
PC B can copy files from PC A

PC A can copy files from PC C
PC C can copy files from PC A

However,
PC B cannot copy files from PC C
PC C cannot copy files from PC B

Trying to copy (or open) a file in this last scenario causes (after a long wait) an error message: "Cannot copy [file]: The specified network resource or device is no longer available."

Short files (<100kb) sometimes work OK but intermittently.

I found something similar described here: http://sites.inka.de/bigred/archive/.../msg00012.html (except only one way is problem here) and the fix described is no use because my registry keys are not the same.

Any ideas?

[GaryRouth]

Are you sure TCP/IP is the only protocol installed on all three? I thought that Win98 systems still required NetBeui installed for the adapter... (I thought that the "TCP/IP-only" capability came in with Win2000, but my memory has been hazy before)

Seems like you could go through the permissions on the B machines Zone Alarm & try different settings & see if that helps.

I don't have ZoneAlarm myself, so I can't help with the details, but if it's ZA related, so many folks do use it, I imagine someone will post with info
. . . Gary

[Ryckman]

Thanks Gary. I've now installed NetBeui on machines B & C and it works. However I still only have TCPIP on machine A and can still file share OK to B, but not to C. So it seems that some machines (NICs?) require NetBeui and some not. I am going to do some more digging on the web to try to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks for the suggestion.

If anyone knows of any good info on this then please post.

[GaryRouth]

I imagine if you put NetBeui on A, all three will share on your local network. I don't remember why Win98 tends to rely on it, perhaps one of the techs from the Network forum will see this thread (or I'll find an article somewhere). . .

From Win2000 and newer, all-TCP/IP networks are recommended by Microsoft. The broadcast signaling that degrades networks as they grow larger (NetBeui uses such broadcasts) isn't a problem with TCP/IP.

I've got my Win2000 books at home, I'll take a look after work: seems like one of the "Essential Win2000" books had a blurb about why NetBeui was necessary for Win98 networking [it might be a designed-in limitation]. . .
. . . Gary

[Redo40]

That's odd, I have win98 on 2 machines and have never had a problem networking and sharing using Tcp/Ip. I have never installed netbeui on my systems...

I do think that netbeui works better with Zone Alarm tho, that may be where the difference is.

[GaryRouth]

Hmmm....just looked around a bit more (still not home to check in my books though) ...seems like it might be an adapter-specific limitation. On some of the Linksys LNE-100tx support pages they specifically require NetBeui in Windows 98, while a Kingston 10/100 card could do both TCP/IP or NetBeui in any combination - (though they then have a cryptic note that NetBeui is only needed "for peer-to-peer" networks ---Roger, is your network a domain or peer-to-peer?) ... Networking details were never my strong suit! [I just become a slave to the manuals the equipment comes with]
. . . Gary

[Redo40]

Originally posted by GaryRouth Hmmm....just looked around a bit more (still not home to check in my books though) ...seems like it might be an adapter-specific limitation. On some of the Linksys LNE-100tx support pages they specifically require NetBeui in Windows 98, while a Kingston 10/100 card could do both TCP/IP or NetBeui in any combination - (though they then have a cryptic note that NetBeui is only needed "for peer-to-peer" networks ---Roger, is your network a domain or peer-to-peer?) ... Networking details were never my strong suit! [I just become a slave to the manuals the equipment comes with] . . . Gary

My network is peer-to-peer...I may be one of the lucky few to never have a problem with it, as I have D-link and Linksys cards in my computers. I am just curious about this for future reference.

[GaryRouth]

Poked around in my Win98 Resource Kit this morning, and it looks like 98 is more flexible than I thought. It comes with the TCP/IP, IPX (Novell), and NetBeui support right there on the CD. (Only TCP/IP is installed by default).

Seems like what I was remembering was that for home networks, NetBeui was the choice for many because it's fast & ridiculously easy to setup [basically, just pick a name for the computer & a name for the workgroup and you're done]. It isn't "routable", but then, most home networks also use TCP/IP, which is. And for less than a dozen computers (which most home networks comfortably fit below), the broadcast overhead of having the two protocols installed isn't noticable.

I've got a few more books lying around, I'll send along anything I find if I stumble across something interesting
. . . Gary

[Ryckman]

I've installed NetBeui on all the machines now and everything works fine...but.....I would prefer to be pure IP. It doesn't seem sensible that it doesn't work. Another odd thing seems to be that to make file sharing work you have to install the dial-up adapter even if you don't have a modem physically installed (which I haven't in 2 of the 3 machines.

When I just had two machines networked peer to peer it worked on pure IP.

Thanks for all your input so far - at least I'm working now!

Richard

[Confused]

FWIW department

I did a search on this forum using the keyword "Netbeui". Seems that a lot of problems come up with sharing and firewalls. Netbeui seems to be the fix of choice.
Chas

[GaryRouth]

I think we're looking at a lot of the same threads, Chas. I noticed that trend too. We probably won't see those much in a few years, when TCP/IP will pretty much rule the roost (since the NT kernel and networking structure are TCP/IP friendly).

I imagine that the drivers and the firewalls written with Win98 in mind might favor a simple implementation like NetBeui. So it might not be only Win98 itself, but the strategies of component manufacturer's and software houses coming into play. Why not write with NetBeui in mind, put it as a prerequisite, and enjoy less support calls?

Another way to look at it: MS TCP/IP covers 40 pages in the Win98 Resource Kit, NetBeui about a page and a half (the protocal into & setup for each).

The most common setup I remember in small (ie: home) networks from five years or so ago was that most would have both TCP/IP and NetBeui installed. NetBeui would be the default protocol for traffic over the home LAN, and TCP/IP would cover connections out to any WANs involved (either the Internet, or corporate networks, etc.).

So, it's possible, Ryckman, that with enough setup & configuration troubleshooting time you could actually get along without NetBeui. It looks like in the end it might not be Win98 throwing up the blockade alone, but complications from device drivers and Win98-version software.

It's a fun topic to research, in it's own odd way
. . . Gary